Ray Moore's comments....

[lobndropshot]

D_B a nice couple of posts. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are not alone in your thoughts and opinions. I may not share them, but, I am sure your not alone. Also, don't worry about my opinions I have taken a vow to never vote.

Words are powerful and they have real consequences. Ignoring comments that put down a group of people also have can have a strong impact. I can see your point, I can see how Ray's words were shaped by others to fit their agenda. I also think the PC game has created a camouflage for people. They can play their game of discrimination as long as they mostly appear to be PC.

I had Serena come play at my club. There was a big discussion between board members to see if the #1 player in the world could come practice for 1&1/2 hours. At the time I thought it was just the rules of the club and they broke the rules and allowed a her to play. Serena came she hit she left. She also stayed and took a few pictures with the staff before she left. After she left I overheard a member say to another member "I hope she didn't shower." They both laughed.

In many ways "progress" is a joke. I think you would agree. But, words effect thoughts, thoughts effect behavior, and behaviors impact people. Here is the thing after I post these words I don't own them anymore they are not my words anymore. They are yours. You take them and internalize them and use them in your world view. They bolster your world view. I have done the same with your words. So it doesn't matter what I write. But at least I feel better now and I am not sure if you feel better after reading your words. I get the feeling you are very angry. I wish I could help you. I want you to be happy.

[stotty]

A great post...

D_B a nice couple of posts. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You are not alone in your thoughts and opinions. I may not share them, but, I am sure your not alone. Also, don't worry about my opinions I have taken a vow to never vote.

Words are powerful and they have real consequences. Ignoring comments that put down a group of people also have can have a strong impact. I can see your point, I can see how Ray's words were shaped by others to fit their agenda. I also think the PC game has created a camouflage for people. They can play their game of discrimination as long as they mostly appear to be PC.

I had Serena come play at my club. There was a big discussion between board members to see if the #1 player in the world could come practice for 1&1/2 hours. At the time I thought it was just the rules of the club and they broke the rules and allowed a her to play. Serena came she hit she left. She also stayed and took a few pictures with the staff before she left. After she left I overheard a member say to another member "I hope she didn't shower." They both laughed.

In many ways "progress" is a joke. I think you would agree. But, words effect thoughts, thoughts effect behavior, and behaviors impact people. Here is the thing after I post these words I don't own them anymore they are not my words anymore. They are yours. You take them and internalize them and use them in your world view. They bolster your world view. I have done the same with your words. So it doesn't matter what I write. But at least I feel better now and I am not sure if you feel better after reading your words. I get the feeling you are very angry. I wish I could help you. I want you to be happy.

This is a terrific and very thoughtful post. It's influential with its dignity. Your words are well chosen, and the reader can only interpret good things and have the deepest respect for the author.

I'm impressed.

[tennis_chiro]

What if he hadn't said one work: "lady"?!

what if …

What if this incident had happened a few years ago before Larry Ellison bought the tournament and Ray Moore wasn’t just one of the directors of the tournament, but also one of its principal owners…

What if Ray Moore hadn’t dedicated over 30 years of his life to developing and building this tournament as a partner with Charlie Pasarel…

What if Ray Moore had said

If I was a **** player, I would ** **** ** ** ***** *** thank God every night that Roger Federer and Rafa Nadal (and Novak Djokovic) were born, because they have carried the sport.

Instead he so idiotically said,
If I was a lady player, I would go down every night on my knees and thank God that …

Rafa, Roger and Novak have won every Indian Wells tournament since 2004 except one for Ivan Ljubicic in 2010. Serena boycotted the tournament after 2001. At least Sharapova won in 2013 and 2006. But how many tickets did the 2009 and 2010 champions, Zvonareva and Jankovic, sell. The years before Ellison took over in 2009, the Indian Wells tournament was nearly busted and there was a good chance the tournament was leaving North America for Asia. I’m sure Ray Moore was very aware of who was getting his corporate boxes and prime box seats sold for him. It wasn't Serena and Venus; they boycotted Indian Wells from 2002 to 2014. And it wasn’t rank and file WTA players. And it wasn’t American men either! Roddick, Isner and Fish added some interest, but just barely. Give Ellison credit; 2009 was when the women got equal prize money at IWTG.

What if…

Ray Moore had not been willing to take the financial risk involved in committing to moving the tournament from the Hyatt to the current grounds of the IWTG. They didn’t know the dot.com crash was going to wipe out a major sponsor of men’s tennis. It was not easy finding sponsors to foot the bill. And then the crash of 2008 comes at a very bad time for Pasarell and Moore.

They moved the tournament so they could expand the draw and hold simultaneous men’s and women’s events. At the Hyatt, the two events had run consecutively, not concurrently. And the women’s event was a much smaller event. They combined the two and increased both draws. Prior to that, the women’s event did not have nearly the prestige that it does today. And certainly, not the prize money.

You have no idea how tired a tournament director is at the end of an event like Indian Wells. What Ray said was idiotic, stupid and wrong, but if he had just left the those seven words out of his off the cuff statement (remember, he was not arguing for reducing women’s prize money), six of which didn’t actually change the meaning at all. In other words, if he had just left one word out, lady, he might have survived.

Ray is an old school guy and he certainly has his biases, but judge him by what he has done. He is not some johnny come lately tournament director who has been running Indian Wells for a couple of years. He is actually a historic figure in the dawn of Open tennis, having secured one of the first significant wins by an amateur against one of the top touring pros, Andres Gimeno, back in 1968,at both Wimbledon and the US Open (Gimeno was 30, but won Roland Garos 4 years later at age 33). In those days, Ray was known as the Wolfman because of his long hair; not someone you would have thought of as “an old white guy”.

Ray was the guiding force behind what Indian Wells became and he stayed on after they sold the event to Larry Ellison to oversee its continued growth. He put his blood and sweat in there and he did tremendous things for women’s tennis as well as the game in general.

But that one word, …

don

[stroke]

Great post Don.

When one attends a tournament, particularly a Masters like Miami and Cincy where both the men and the women are playing, you really get a feel for which matches attract the fans. I was in Cincy a couple of years ago and the tournament had scheduled Serena to play in the Stadium for a 1pm match or so. At the same time, Isner vs Murray was scheduled on the Grandstand. The Grandstand was completely full, fans were lined up hoping to get in but no seats. It was an electric atmosphere. The Stadium was almost a ghost town and folks were actually going to the top row of the Stadium to peer over the top to see the Grandstand match. It was a little comical, from the Grandstand we could see folks standing on the top row of the Stadium, their back to the Stadium court, trying to watch the Isner/Murray match next door at the Grandstand. This is not an aberation at these tournaments. The fans find the matches they want to see no matter who is given the Stadium star treatment by the tournament schedulers. Lc has it right in an earlier post.

[bottle]

Sloane Stephens needs to be less nidicolous and more nidifigous.

[tennis_chiro]

Sloane Stephens needs to be less nidicolous and more nidifigous.

Wow. I learned two new words at breakfast. Great. But Bottle, I think some words about humility and perspective might be just as appropriate here.

don

[tennis_chiro]

Wow. I learned two new words at breakfast. Great. But Bottle, I think some words about humility and perspective might be just as appropriate here.

don

Going a little further along this line, it seems there are way too many altricial players and we are looking for the next precocial one: is it Coric, Zverev or maybe even Fritz? Forget about figuring out the women.

don

PS. I wonder where Monfils would fit on this spectrum.

[don_budge]

post #33…most interesting tennis_chiro

Most interesting tennis_chiro. Fantastic post. This gives us some perspective.

I watched the final between Azarenka and Williams and it wasn't necessarily watchable. I did it out of an internal challenge. I challenged myself to watch it. I wrote about it in post #6 in gzhpcu's "Any women tennis players on this forum?" thread.

As it turns out it was a very timely written post…mine was. It was a really boring one dimensional match featuring two of the biggest screamers in women's tennis. They were not only screaming but Williams was acting up and her attitude was obviously bad. The commentatoes were tripping all over each other trying to make excuses for her. She smashed and obliterated two racquets at one point. Hardly what I would call "lady-like" behavior. Ray Moore did call them "ladies". He said "if I was a lady player I would get down on my knees every night and give thanks to God".

It didn't take long for Serena to regain her composure to come out and tag Ray with everything she had in her deep reservoir of resentment. I missed her "loser" speech at the awards ceremony and I am sorry that I did. I think it may have been revealing.

I wonder if part of what motivated Ray Moore to make his comments was Serena's poor behavior. Her display of temper was unprecedented as far as I can remember. Well…unprecedented outside of Serena Williams that is, as I have seen her act very, very badly a number of times. Her performances in the interview room are unparalleled as well. Generally speaking one would have to say that she is a very poor sport in general. Very ungracious. The voice itself sounds very suspicious. She sounds like a man trying to sound like a woman.

This business with equal money for the men and the women is an interesting question. It is a question of value. How much value does the performance of the women tennis players have compared to that of the men. As Serena opined…we have come a long way. The main sponsor for the original women's tour used to be Virginia Slims cigarettes who's slogan was "you've come a long way, Baby!" Even the use of a cigarette sponsor has changed with the times. Nowadays using a cigarette sponsor for tennis would be shall we say…inappropriate.

I would say that the entertainment value of Serena and company is sort of a struggling proposition. I would go so far as to say the men's tour ought to be down on their knees to Roger and Rafael as well. It has basically been a four man show keeping that boat afloat as well. It will be interesting to see how things pan out in the future…with Roger's imminent departure. I have written how much I think about men's professional tennis without a Roger Federer in the draw. There are two types of tournaments these days…those with Roger and those without. Those with Roger qualify as a real tournament with potential matches that are watchable from start to finish. Those tournaments without Roger are lacking the necessary ingredients to truly be called entertainment.

That was such a good post tennis_chiro detailing the history of the Indian Wells tournament and the contributions of Ray Moore. I remember him back in the days of Classic Tennis as you mentioned were entering the "Open Era". He was one of those players who maybe struggled in the singles…his highest ranking was 34 in the world or so but he was a very keen doubles player. I realized another thing how you and he had something else in common. He was one of those players that used the Wilson T2000 tennis racquet.

I don't think what he said was so inexcusable. Perhaps Serena and company could have quietly taken it to heart and asked themselves in their heart of hearts if there wasn't some validity to what he said. But no…it's the standard knee jerk reaction. Interesting that it is Serena championing women's rights. She being one of the least feminine looking of the species on the tour. I believe that Ray also made some remarks about the appearances of the women. Perhaps more of this is directed at Serena than we know. Her performance in the final was embarrassing and if I was a sponsor I think I would be asking myself what kind of message Serena sends out to people watching. She may even have deserved a cut in pay for her nonsense. I think that she embarrassed the entire tournament. It may have been why Ray Moore felt compelled to make those remarks. Maybe we haven't heard the end of this.

[stotty]

Yes tennis_chiro's "What if" post was a good one. Now we know a little more about what Ray Moore stood for and his standing in the game. Many players exit the game and give nothing back, and, in this regard, you have to feel sorry for Ray. He put back into the game then got slung out. I cannot tell you how much I dislike the kangaroo court justice of social media and modern day press coverage. One word out of line - and as it transpires it did come down to one word - and you run the gauntlet.

It's also interesting reading don_budge's take on racism and what it is exactly. I live in a mostly white area where asians and blacks get slowly integrated...trickled in. Immigrants seem to get acknowledged by the locals this way and fit in fine. Up north where my parents come from, vast parts of some communities are populated with many thousands of asians. This causes a big problem. In the 60s, thousands and thousands of immigrants from Pakistan and India entered the country and the government plonked them down in just a handful of areas. These areas have never really recovered from the bad feeling which festered as a result of this mass off-loading by the government.

There is strong evidence that dispersing immigrants across the country over a wide area works a lot better and doesn't cause shock to the system...in fact quite the reverse.

My father worked in Chicago for twenty years and then retired in Maine. He said there was significant racial tension in Chicago that was comparable to when he lived in up north in Britain.

[don_budge]

Sherlock Holmes…at work

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/live/2016/mar/20/serena-williams-victoria-azarenka-indian-wells-womens-final-latest-score

I'm combing the internet for the Serena Williams loser speech. I came across this article and it doesn't mention her smashing two racquets. Just some oblique references to her not playing her best and some more nonsense about the problems that she has had in the past.

The media is guilty in the way that it has depicted Ray Moore's comments. He may have been making the comments because of the terrible display that the "role model" for all of the "girls" out there went haywire. That is exactly what she did.

If Roger Federer had made such a display it would have been front page news for weeks. Serena gets a pass and what's more comes out swinging at Ray Moore. Even her name is the ultimate irony. The name connotes serenity and female bliss. What the reality is...is something quite different.

Serena is angry…I am just the messenger.

[don_budge]

Joel Drucker weighs in…2009

Some years after the original controversy Joel Drucker weighed in on the Serena/Venus Williams controversy. There is a history of the girls at this event and it isn't all that well documented by the press. In fact…they have been really sloppy. It's a good example how the facts can be twisted over time and the truth is totally obfuscated.

The supposed "racial" incident actually was instigated by none other than the Williams themselves as Venus withdrew from her match with Serena five minutes before it was to begin. I think that Charlie Pasarell thought that this was totally unprofessional and so did the many people who had bought tickets to the match.

http://espn.go.com/sports/tennis/columns/story?id=3952939&columnist=drucker_joel

There is considerable history behind the comments that Ray Moore made. But they are not being reported.

[tennis_chiro]

Some years after the original controversy Joel Drucker weighed in on the Serena/Venus Williams controversy. ...

http://espn.go.com/sports/tennis/columns/story?id=3952939&columnist=drucker_joel

There is considerable history behind the comments that Ray Moore made. But they are not being reported.

Exactly. Ray Moore screwed up, but he also is getting screwed here.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

don

[bottle]

Why did the reporter call racism "junk?" Venus was right to call him on that. The Williamses won this contretemps I would say. Couldn't have been hard.

[stotty]

You're right, we all forget.

Some years after the original controversy Joel Drucker weighed in on the Serena/Venus Williams controversy. There is a history of the girls at this event and it isn't all that well documented by the press. In fact…they have been really sloppy. It's a good example how the facts can be twisted over time and the truth is totally obfuscated.

The supposed "racial" incident actually was instigated by none other than the Williams themselves as Venus withdrew from her match with Serena five minutes before it was to begin. I think that Charlie Pasarell thought that this was totally unprofessional and so did the many people who had bought tickets to the match.

http://espn.go.com/sports/tennis/columns/story?id=3952939&columnist=drucker_joel

There is considerable history behind the comments that Ray Moore made. But they are not being reported.

Yes we do forget...and the truth gets hazy. I had forgotten the days when Serena and Venus were on a par with each and their strange matches around that time...the fixing going on. That hurt Serena. She might be on 25 slams by now were it not for her capitulations.

I had forgotten their smirks and innuendos when they were accused of fixing their matches. Serena still hasn't grown out of that smirky, innuendo attitude. Actually, come to think of it, this is the problem the tennis world has with Serena. She never, or rarely, tells the truth directly. Instead she uses innuendo and half truths...and sometimes no truth at all. She goads at press conferences.

I wonder if she will break the grand slam record. She wants it. But she isn't the best match player and I could see her losing her nerve.

[bottle]

I See Things a Little Differently

Yeah, she seems about to go down from unforced errors. Why wouldn't somebody getting older who hits that hard? As far as the other part, though, about half-truths and innuendo, I see it as much more true of the press corps, the media, and other Republicans (a broad swatch of persons since most Americans seem like Republicans today, even Bernie Sanders once he tries to turn his mind to foreign affairs-- he just won't go after Hillary on the really heavy stuff).

Culturally, the reporters doing the interviewing in all of this presented material don't seem cool or empathetic in the slightest. I don't think they've known enough black people or been invited to enough black parties. Me personally, I have been though not quite as many as I would like.

Venus was exactly right when she called the dude on insinuating (yes using "innuendo," your word) that racism is "junk." Oh sure, it's just something made up by the politically correct. Which superficial view ignores half a millenium worth of slavery, cruelty, economic damage through discrimination and all the other black history that hardly should need documentation by now but apparently does.

The standard that someone tries to put on two tennis players for elocution and white person supposed (let's say "alleged") good manners is apparently much more stringent if they are black and winners. I'm not aware of the run of professional tennis players, with a few notable exceptions (e.g. Agassi, McEnroe and Federer) as being particularly forthcoming and eloquent.

In this context I think the Williams sisters have done well. I think they have a lot of heart. I see sincerity where others see duplicity. No, they didn't go to Stanford or Yale. But they speak from the heart a lot more often than those who did.