Three Keys to the Kick Serve

[johnyandell]

Let's discuss Jeff Salzenstein's latest article, "Three Keys to the Kick Serve"

[bdole]

Some great points in the article: the imagery, the shoulder turn, the arc of the toss...looking forward to trying them.

However, I have to question the argument in favor of the platform stance. While I think platform vs. pinpoint is a personal preference and the best stance is the one the server is most comfortable in, I don't think Jeff's arguments in favor of platform hold water.

Jeff makes the point that platform stance keeps the server from opening up too soon. I would agree that platform forces a later opening, but if a pinpoint server is conscious of his torso position, he can also easily avoid opening up early.

Jeff's second justification is that more shoulder turn is possible in platform. I don't think this is true. One could test this right now while reading this post, simply by setting up in platform stance with maximum shoulder turn away, then stepping forward and back. I feel that I actually have a few more degrees in pinpoint. Either way the difference is negligible.

What is not negligible is the height of contact possible between the two serving stances. I realize it is counterproductive in any stance to attempt to hit the ball as high as possible with a straight arm, extended shoulder, and ulnar deviated wrist pointing the racquet straight up. However, given the same proper upper body hitting architecture, the server can make contact at a greater height in pinpoint than platform. This is analogous to a ladder being spread further apart at the base, lowering the top step.

And I believe Karlovic, Raonic, and Isner pretty effectively make the argument for higher contact height, irrespective of stance.

[gfkdzdds]

grip

Let's discuss Jeff Salzenstein's latest article, "Three Keys to the Kick Serve"

Do you advocate for a grip change? Something closer to a backhand grip?

[johnyandell]

Good question for Jeff...Let me see if I can get him to answer...

[johnyandell]

bd,

Well we can't clone Jeff, or Pete, or Isner and teach them different stances as kids and see which clone serves better in the pros.

Many great coaches love the pinpoint. In fact our most detailed articles on the kick serve from Chris Lewit are based on the pinpoint.

Obviously there are great servers with both so it may be a preference thing that is hard to prove one way or the other--except proponents of both love what they advocate. Since I worked with Jeff when he changed I saw the huge difference it made for him.

As for contact height, you may be referring to the classic Bruce Elliot study.
I know and respect Bruce but there was what I think was a basic methodological flaw.
He measured the difference by having the same players use both stances. I don't think that changing the stance for a few serves for one experiment is likely to yield great data.
Many years ago I did a qualitative study of high speed video that showed no correlation between stance and contact height.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/the_myth/the_myth_of_the_pinpoint_stance_images/the_myth_of_the_pinpoint_stance.html

[jeffsalzenstein]

bdole,

Thank you for your feedback and let me share more of my perspective here...

In my experience, Most developing players can’t just be “conscious of his torso position”. By forcing a player into a platform stance, the player almost always had to hold the turn longer before facing the net too early unless the toss is way too far to the right with a right hander. If I player uses a pinpoint and bring the back foot up to the side of the front foot, the body will often face the net too early and the toss has a greater tendency to go to the right.

With the platform the hips can usually turn more with the 1st move which allows for greater shoulder rotation.

As for contact height when the ball is struck, I have not experienced what you are taking about. If anything, if you can jump higher off 2 feet than 1, your contact height would be higher in a platform.

My answers come form my own experimentation with players over the years and seeing the improvements made by moving to a platform. In fact, some players move back to a pinpoint after, but only after they get a new feeling of the aspects discussed above while in the platform.

Finally I am a big believer in “modeling the best” The best servers of all time under 6’3 or 6”4 are?

Sampras?
Federer?
Roddick?

All platform...I don’t think that is a coincidence.

[jeffsalzenstein]

gfk,

I do like more of a backhand grip to feel the kick, but you can get kick with both grips.

[bottle]

To Try

Is "what I want to try" germane here? It should be. For a kick serve I want to try the 70 degrees of shoulders surge in .1 second described in the reprise article THE SAMPRAS SERVE: HIP AND SHOULDER ROTATION at the bottom of this month's main menu.

How best to cue it off of a platform stance but using 1930's form better for old guys with knee replacement?

First concept backswing: The shoulders set slightly forward of hips go first bringing hips with them and passing them. The hips then become pro-active catching up with shoulders to bring both to 20 degrees from baseline on the "around" side. This last motion brings front foot up on its toes.

Foreswing: The hips go 20 degrees before the shoulders even move. The shoulders now take over and move hips to get the racket into initial drop. The hips now take over as racket nudges outward to pro drop. (I don't know yet where to let heel come down to let heel go up again as part of Alexander the Great's total body erection, we'll see.)

The shoulders surge of 70 degrees takes hips 30 degrees around while passing them. The hips take over after contact for deceleration and catching up to the shoulders for the rest of the serve and follow-down.

The main idea is the 70 degrees shoulders surge in 1/10th of a second to add to whatever racket speed one has generated with ISR and maybe pronation.

I've never done this but am waiting for rain to stop so I can try it.

[bdole]

Jeff,

Thanks for the responses to my comments. Although I feel good about my own shoulder & hip turn in pinpoint, I really can't argue with your past coaching experience of players struggling to stay closed on serve.

I was searching for some contact height images between the two stances and realized I was misunderstanding where the ball strike occurs in the serve sequence. It seems the pros are in fact "jumping" before contact, via extension of the various body segments. I was envisioning contact while the feet were still on the ground followed by upwards momentum off the ground. I see now in high-speed footage that the upwards momentum off the ground occurs well before contact.

I imagine a lot of my discomfort with platform is coming from trying to stay on the ground until contact.

Apologies!

[johnyandell]

bdole,

Let yourself launch! The pinpoint was a critical aspect for players in getting to the net in the days of wood and serve and volley when one foot was required by law to be on the ground at contact. When that rule was changed, the platform was born!

[bottle]

Jeff,
I imagine a lot of my discomfort with platform is coming from trying to stay on the ground until contact.

No, that will work too if you realize all the different ways grounded hips can turn in either a forehand or a serve. The hips can turn while front heel is up in the air. And while both feet are flat. And while rear foot is rotating up on its toes as front foot is held flat. And as front heel then rises on its toes for a second time.

One could choose from this selection, I suppose. Or combine them in the order given here. And add a fifth dish then like a server in 1930-- walk through with outside foot.

[10splayer]

"Arching" the toss (which i believe should be done in varying degrees, regardless of serve type) is key. "Contact" well inside the hand is where the rubber meets the road in terms of success. Are stances germane? Not sure.

It seems the prevailing wind (in general) is that platform is the way to go (regardless of serve type) but separation angle is an interesting topic. It would seem, if that is a relevant factor, pinpoint should not be discarded.

[gzhpcu]

While there are many articles available on the contact point of a spin serve, two techniques which can help you add more spin to your serve are less commonly discussed: use of the legs to push off the ground; and an Eastern, backhand grip. Edberg is the prime example. Raonic also has an Eastern backhand grip.

[nickw]

bdole,

Finally I am a big believer in “modeling the best” The best servers of all time under 6’3 or 6”4 are?

Sampras?
Federer?
Roddick?

All platform...I don’t think that is a coincidence.

Nice article Jeff, I like the X-factor as it brings together two of the most important ingredients for the kick serve, the ball toss and the swing path of the racket through contact.

I'm also very much a believer that platform is best, and to add weight to your argument above, surely Djokovic has to be included given his serve stats and ability to produce it under pressure. And if we bump the height limit up an inch and go forward five years, Raonic might have forced his way onto the list too.

Interesting thing I noticed with Raonic is that he gets more drive from his back leg than other platform stance users, wonder if that could be significant?

[biodegradableeric1979]

bdole,

Thank you for your feedback and let me share more of my perspective here...

In my experience, Most developing players can’t just be “conscious of his torso position”. By forcing a player into a platform stance, the player almost always had to hold the turn longer before facing the net too early unless the toss is way too far to the right with a right hander. If I player uses a pinpoint and bring the back foot up to the side of the front foot, the body will often face the net too early and the toss has a greater tendency to go to the right.

With the platform the hips can usually turn more with the 1st move which allows for greater shoulder rotation.

As for contact height when the ball is struck, I have not experienced what you are taking about. If anything, if you can jump higher off 2 feet than 1, your contact height would be higher in a platform.

My answers come form my own experimentation with players over the years and seeing the improvements made by moving to a platform. In fact, some players move back to a pinpoint after, but only after they get a new feeling of the aspects discussed above while in the platform.

Finally I am a big believer in “modeling the best” The best servers of all time under 6’3 or 6”4 are?

Sampras?
Federer?
Roddick?

All platform...I don’t think that is a coincidence.

"Modeling the best" for a recreational player such as myself is the advice I follow. The only problem I've come across doing so is that when you bring up how the best server of all time, Roddick does something after you study a Yandell article, some people get the wrong impression of where you're coming from. Enjoy your videos on YouTube as well!