BBC: iWonder . "What makes the perfect serve"

[gzhpcu]

Jack-knifing is also referred to as "body snap" Stanley Plaegenhoef spoke of "jutting buttocks"... Just one more element in the complex kinetic chain...

[klacr]

Yes, but would you tell your pupils not to watch the ball at impact?

Depends who the pupil is. For most, the classic watching the ball method can work, but if they are a great player, well, they kind of create it on their own. Just because it's not found in a textbook does not mean it doesn't exist.

No one taught me how to serve, I just kinda tried to look like good players and it turned into its own. Do I know exactly what I'm doing when I serve, sort of but not really. Do I think about any of these things, no. Is it effective for me?...I have no complaints.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[gzhpcu]

Well, I guess it depends on whether or not you believe in the Alexander technique, which says that the body follows the head and that a steady head is needed. But, of course, you will always find exceptions to the rule, and talented players can get away with almost anything.

[stotty]

Head up....

I looked at a number of players in the archive. The ones I studied all kept their head up looking at the ball when they serve. Rusedski is perhaps a little unusual

Not all players watch the ball as carefully as others on other strokes as well as the serve. This has been proven. Some take their eye away from the ball a little before contact. I remember this was conclusively proven in a book called Science of Coaching Tennis.

I just think some players develop an extremely good sense of where the ball will be, and this is exactly what Rusedski must be doing.

You would think the serve would be the one shot where dropping the head down early would effect things dramatically, yet with some players, like Rusedski, it doesn't. I cannot fathom how he gets away with it.

[don_budge]

What makes a perfect serve?

A perfect motion…that's what. If your racquet head travels seamlessly on a "track" as the car on a roller coaster…that is a perfect motion. If gravity is your guiding force the head is going to do what it does naturally. Never thought of it…because I don't have to. Essentially speaking.

Better to concentrate on the toss and putting that ball precisely where it should be, when it should be. Better to concentrate on letting the racquet head fall behind you at free fall speed so it can come out of the loop with blinding speed. But sure…keep your eye on the ball and on the prize.

[nickw]

I just think some players develop an extremely good sense of where the ball will be, and this is exactly what Rusedski must be doing.

You would think the serve would be the one shot where dropping the head down early would effect things dramatically, yet with some players, like Rusedski, it doesn't. I cannot fathom how he gets away with it.

Couldn't agree more, I guess doing something a certain way enough times, will allow you to develop that sense.

But maybe he didn't get away with it completely. I remember times when his serve was letting him down, especially in pressure moments. Looking at career stats, he was at 58% (a little low), and averaged 4.64 double faults per match (a little high). Surely, these stats would have been better had he spent his career looking at the ball when he served?

[gzhpcu]

The question though is whether the body position changes due to not looking at the ball...

[don_budge]

The Question! Answer the Question…Jerk!

The question though is whether the body position changes due to not looking at the ball...

I know that you Brits can appreciate the question…ANSWER THE QUESTION!

Well…let's take a frame by frame look at the Greg Rusedski motion to see just what effect, if any, his idiosyncrasy head position has on his serve.

Counting the clicks with the arrow key…we begin at zero with the beginning of the clip.

00…The Rusedski setup position looks to be your standard perfect setup position…according to don_budge. Weight shifted forwards and racquet pointing at the target. The line at the end of the toes are pointed in the direction of the target. Shoulders are lined up to the right net post or thereabouts. He has put himself in perfect position to make a perfect backswing. He is practically the mirror image of Roger Federer in this position…minus the RF idiosyncrasy with the lowered racquet head.

12…Rusedski takes a full 12 clicks with the arrow key to commence his motion. He commences it with what you might call a "forward press" in golf lingo to enable him to start the motion from something other than a dead start. He gently lifts the racquet up just a tad.

24…For the next 12 clicks Rusedski is raising the head of his racquet with a lift of both arms simultaneously. At the same time he is settling his weight back into his back foot. Here is his true setup position. Now his racquet head is really pointed at his target. The first 24 clicks were more or less pre shot routine. Once he has settled his weight back into his back foot and lifted his racquet he is in position to drop the racquet head effortlessly down in front of the line of his feet. His backswing commences here.

36…Twelve more clicks and Rusedski has dropped both hands to the bottom of his "track". The racquet head has swung back directly backwards from his target. He has sunk more of his weight into his back foot with the move of his racquet and he has made a nice little lowering movement with his whole being while simultaneously beginning his turning of his shoulders. Both hands went down together.

44…Rusedski releases the ball in his tossing motion about shoulder high. Interesting…another idiosyncrasy?

62…At 62 clicks into the beginning of the clip he has reached the apex of his backswing. Both his tossing hand and the tip of his racquet are at the highest points in the backswing. This is the end of his backswing. He is in position now to begin the forwards movement. The line of his shoulders are precisely on the same line as the line of his feet. In Rick Macci lingo he has achieved the "elbow, shoulder, shoulder" alignment he looks for in perfect service motions.

76…Rusedski's racquet is now at it's lowest point behind his back. His footwork starts out looking to be platform but he moves into a pinpoint with his left foot coming to a point in front of his front foot which opens up his shoulders or perhaps increases his rotational energy towards the ball. Apparently he is airborne as his front foot is over the line. This should be interesting to see just exactly where his front foot is at contact.

79…Only three clicks to contact point from the lowest position of his racquet head. This tells us that his racquet head is moving awfully fast. On the first click past his lowest point he is still looking at the ball. But his head comes "off" of the ball with the next two…up to the point of contact. I would imagine that this is only for a very brief instant. Note the position of the back leg too…there is virtually no "kick back". The back foot is swinging into the court…on his way to the net.

86…The conclusion of his follow through shows perfect balance as Greg is quickly following his delivery to the net.

So in answer to the question…does the body position change with his not looking at the ball? I would have to say definitely not. The head movement occurs just a fraction of a second before impact. The serve is the only stroke in tennis where the player has total control of the ball as he can toss it up to tee it up in the air. Greg has tossed the ball at his swing as he has done thousands upon thousands of time. His body knows exactly where that ball is by now. It is as close to an actual golf shot that there is in the game. One might actually say that tennis is golf on the run.

But Rusedski's service motion is pretty much what you might call a perfect service motion. It will repeat itself time after time. Whether Rusedski had the nerve to hold the tempo in the big moments is another matter. It is probably more a case of the rest of his game breaking down before the serve did but eventually it would break down when the rest of it did.

Rusedski's motion was designed to be followed to the net. This emphasis on starting forwards may give it the appearance of a premature "looking into the court" but in reality very few players are looking at the ball the way that Roger Federer does with a bit of an exaggerated holding of the head still. It doesn't appear that Rusedski' "idiosyncrasy" has any negative effect on his motion. It appears to be a result of his desire to be quickly into the court. He is actually using his head to do just that.

I didn't detect any kinks or hesitations in his motion. Great rotational movement into the ball. When Greg sets his back foot forwards he really starts to turn with the hips and his shoulders are following in due course. The result of his driving legs, turning hips and shoulders gives his big "throwing" motion turbo boosting upwards into the ball.

It's a damn good motion…I wonder about bringing that front foot forwards though. That's the one question that I have. It almost appears that by doing that movement he gets his body just a little in front of the ball or causes him to be just a little forwards of the ball at impact. Is he losing just a percentage of his potential extension? If I were Greg…I think I would be more concerned with any lack of extension more that I would be about not seeing the ball at impact. In golf…they say to stay behind the ball. Greg's head position forwards may just be a product of that foot movement. Plus…does he throw the ball far enough into the court?

[don_budge]

The Question…Is Rusedski's "head case" in Jeff Mac's "wheelhouse"

Couldn't agree more, I guess doing something a certain way enough times, will allow you to develop that sense.

But maybe he didn't get away with it completely. I remember times when his serve was letting him down, especially in pressure moments. Looking at career stats, he was at 58% (a little low), and averaged 4.64 double faults per match (a little high). Surely, these stats would have been better had he spent his career looking at the ball when he served?

Yep…this is the question. I imagine his left-handedness more that made up for these stats though. The lefty nature of his serve is not going to show up in the stats.

Or did Rusedski press on his serve because of inadequacies in the rest of his game? Was he over-compensating somehow with the resulting premature head movement? Perhaps we should consult with JeffMac…Rusedski's "head case" seems to be right in his "wheel-house" as 10splayer likes to say.

[nickw]

Great analysis of the Rusedski serve don_budge, and thank-you for answering the question! Although, answers usually lead to MORE questions.

As highlighted, Rusedski turns his head forward only a fraction of a moment before contact with the ball, but what's the effect for a player who turns their head earlier than that? I would have thought at some point, the body position has to be affected, but when, and does it vary from player to player?

And what's the effect if the body position does change as a result of the head looking forward before contact? Less power? Less accuracy?

I would have thought less power, as I stated in my first post on this thread, because potential energy is being lost IF that movement is affecting the body position. Rusedski didn't suffer from lack of power though (unless he could have been a 150 man?), but assuming not, then the analysis from don_budge suggests his head turning wasn't changing the body position, and as such would explain why he didn't suffer any power loss.

But what about the visual effect of not looking at the ball at contact? For me, that would lead to less accuracy, even if it is only a tiny fraction of a second between losing visual sight of the ball and making contact with it.

Interesting and valid points re reasons for Rusedski's serve stats, perhaps over-compensating at times, perhaps head movement related to it. He did hold 87% of serve games in his career though, so inadequacies or not, I would have thought the times he felt the need to push it would have been confined to tight games against top players and particularly good returner's, perhaps not enough to affect his career stats by too much?

[stotty]

Rusedski analysis...

I know that you Brits can appreciate the question…ANSWER THE QUESTION!

Well…let's take a frame by frame look at the Greg Rusedski motion to see just what effect, if any, his idiosyncrasy head position has on his serve.

Counting the clicks with the arrow key…we begin at zero with the beginning of the clip.

00…The Rusedski setup position looks to be your standard perfect setup position…according to don_budge. Weight shifted forwards and racquet pointing at the target. The line at the end of the toes are pointed in the direction of the target. Shoulders are lined up to the right net post or thereabouts. He has put himself in perfect position to make a perfect backswing. He is practically the mirror image of Roger Federer in this position…minus the RF idiosyncrasy with the lowered racquet head.

12…Rusedski takes a full 12 clicks with the arrow key to commence his motion. He commences it with what you might call a "forward press" in golf lingo to enable him to start the motion from something other than a dead start. He gently lifts the racquet up just a tad.

24…For the next 12 clicks Rusedski is raising the head of his racquet with a lift of both arms simultaneously. At the same time he is settling his weight back into his back foot. Here is his true setup position. Now his racquet head is really pointed at his target. The first 24 clicks were more or less pre shot routine. Once he has settled his weight back into his back foot and lifted his racquet he is in position to drop the racquet head effortlessly down in front of the line of his feet. His backswing commences here.

36…Twelve more clicks and Rusedski has dropped both hands to the bottom of his "track". The racquet head has swung back directly backwards from his target. He has sunk more of his weight into his back foot with the move of his racquet and he has made a nice little lowering movement with his whole being while simultaneously beginning his turning of his shoulders. Both hands went down together.

44…Rusedski releases the ball in his tossing motion about shoulder high. Interesting…another idiosyncrasy?

62…At 62 clicks into the beginning of the clip he has reached the apex of his backswing. Both his tossing hand and the tip of his racquet are at the highest points in the backswing. This is the end of his backswing. He is in position now to begin the forwards movement. The line of his shoulders are precisely on the same line as the line of his feet. In Rick Macci lingo he has achieved the "elbow, shoulder, shoulder" alignment he looks for in perfect service motions.

76…Rusedski's racquet is now at it's lowest point behind his back. His footwork starts out looking to be platform but he moves into a pinpoint with his left foot coming to a point in front of his front foot which opens up his shoulders or perhaps increases his rotational energy towards the ball. Apparently he is airborne as his front foot is over the line. This should be interesting to see just exactly where his front foot is at contact.

79…Only three clicks to contact point from the lowest position of his racquet head. This tells us that his racquet head is moving awfully fast. On the first click past his lowest point he is still looking at the ball. But his head comes "off" of the ball with the next two…up to the point of contact. I would imagine that this is only for a very brief instant. Note the position of the back leg too…there is virtually no "kick back". The back foot is swinging into the court…on his way to the net.

86…The conclusion of his follow through shows perfect balance as Greg is quickly following his delivery to the net.

So in answer to the question…does the body position change with his not looking at the ball? I would have to say definitely not. The head movement occurs just a fraction of a second before impact. The serve is the only stroke in tennis where the player has total control of the ball as he can toss it up to tee it up in the air. Greg has tossed the ball at his swing as he has done thousands upon thousands of time. His body knows exactly where that ball is by now. It is as close to an actual golf shot that there is in the game. One might actually say that tennis is golf on the run.

But Rusedski's service motion is pretty much what you might call a perfect service motion. It will repeat itself time after time. Whether Rusedski had the nerve to hold the tempo in the big moments is another matter. It is probably more a case of the rest of his game breaking down before the serve did but eventually it would break down when the rest of it did.

Rusedski's motion was designed to be followed to the net. This emphasis on starting forwards may give it the appearance of a premature "looking into the court" but in reality very few players are looking at the ball the way that Roger Federer does with a bit of an exaggerated holding of the head still. It doesn't appear that Rusedski' "idiosyncrasy" has any negative effect on his motion. It appears to be a result of his desire to be quickly into the court. He is actually using his head to do just that.

I didn't detect any kinks or hesitations in his motion. Great rotational movement into the ball. When Greg sets his back foot forwards he really starts to turn with the hips and his shoulders are following in due course. The result of his driving legs, turning hips and shoulders gives his big "throwing" motion turbo boosting upwards into the ball.

It's a damn good motion…I wonder about bringing that front foot forwards though. That's the one question that I have. It almost appears that by doing that movement he gets his body just a little in front of the ball or causes him to be just a little forwards of the ball at impact. Is he losing just a percentage of his potential extension? If I were Greg…I think I would be more concerned with any lack of extension more that I would be about not seeing the ball at impact. In golf…they say to stay behind the ball. Greg's head position forwards may just be a product of that foot movement. Plus…does he throw the ball far enough into the court?

Great analysis of the Rusedski serve don_budge, and thank-you for answering the question! Although, answers usually lead to MORE questions.

But what about the visual effect of not looking at the ball at contact? For me, that would lead to less accuracy, even if it is only a tiny fraction of a second between losing visual sight of the ball and making contact with it.

Interesting and valid points re reasons for Rusedski's serve stats, perhaps over-compensating at times, perhaps head movement related to it. He did hold 87% of serve games in his career though, so inadequacies or not, I would have thought the times he felt the need to push it would have been confined to tight games against top players and particularly good returner's, perhaps not enough to affect his career stats by too much?

Yes a great analysis from don budge. It seems nothing is a affected if it's done at the very last split second...you have to believe he's treading a fine line however.

I am not sure accuracy would be affected, nickw. The "sense of direction" is acquired before the serve has commenced, when the player looking down the court at the box he is about to serve into. Once the serve commences the server has only a vague peripheral sight of the service box until around the release point of the toss when he then loses sight of it altogether. If anything a player may take his eye off the ball early to "seek" accuracy.

One of the tough things to install in young players is the discipline to take their time before delivering. Visualisation and accuracy should play a big part in the pre serve build up....kids alway want to rush.

[nickw]

I am not sure accuracy would be affected, nickw. The "sense of direction" is acquired before the serve has commenced, when the player looking down the court at the box he is about to serve into. Once the serve commences the server loses sight (peripheral) of the box around the release point of the toss or earlier. If anything a player may take his eye off the ball to "seek" accuracy.

One of the tough things to install in young players is the discipline to take their time before delivering. Visualisation and accuracy should play a big part in the pre serve build up....kids alway want to rush.

I guess it would be great to have split screen vision for tennis Half on the target, half on the object.

Looking at other sports: Football (sorry that's also referred to as soccer!), a player when kicking will look at the target and then look down at the ball for moment of contact. Must be the same when they kick the ball in American Football.

I don't play golf, but I understand the advice is to keep the eyes glued to the ball from the moment you start the swing?

I'm sure balance is a big factor here, but take your eyes off the ball in these cases, and you risk mis-hits. Maintain perfect balance and don't look at the ball at all, and you'll probably 'clean air' it (we've all done just that when trying to hit a serve with eyes shut). So the accuracy will decrease if you take your eyes off the ball early. Question is, does the accuracy start decreasing from the first moment there is a gap between having visual contact with the ball and making contact? imo yes. Or is there a certain length of time that you can lose visual contact with the ball and get away without any loss of accuracy, and if so how long?

Darts is different because the object that will move to the target is firmly in your hand at the start, and here it's all about having your eyes glued to the target at the moment you release the dart. This does suggest that in an ideal world, you would want to be looking at the target to increase accuracy, but when you're intercepting a moving object to send to that target it's just not possible. That's where golf is interesting, as the object is stationary.

I also give my opinion from personal experience with this, as mentioned, I personally find my serve accuracy goes up when I really nail keeping my head up and eyes on the ball until contact has been made (almost exaggerating it). I did invite people to try it out and report back, none so far......

Totally agree with kids wanting to rush stotty, I always tell them the serve is the ONLY shot in tennis where you can take your time before hitting the ball, so they really should make the most of that advantage.

[bottle]

Useful discussion.

[gzhpcu]

I think the point of the discussion is being missed. It is not about be able to hit a serve well without looking at the ball, but what are the consequences to the body motion? Seems to me Rusedski is jack-knifing excessively...

[nickw]

I think the point of the discussion is being missed. It is not about be able to hit a serve well without looking at the ball, but what are the consequences to the body motion? Seems to me Rusedski is jack-knifing excessively...

The discussion is evolving , but fair point Phil.

I had a brief look earlier at both Rusedski and Lopez (both when serve/volleying). Lopez looks at the ball to contact much better than Rusedski, but I didn't notice any major difference to the body position at moment of contact, would need a bit more research done with various players to get some definitive answers.