Federer Clip! Changing the way we play, changing tennis instruction!

[lukman41985]

Bungalow,
Throughout your rude diatribe, I sensed you went about trying to tear apart my analysis without the least bit of rationality. Relax. Read agin. We'll talk later.

[Bungalow Bill]

Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends...

Bungalow,
Throughout your rude diatribe, I sensed you went about trying to tear apart my analysis without the least bit of rationality. Relax. Read agin. We'll talk later.

Rude? That is mild compared to what I really wanted to say!

There is nothing in my post to you that is rude. You may have misread some things that is all. I simply opposed your thinking and felt it was dated and a bit muted in thinking.

I actually felt I answered your post very well. The Agassi thing was known. The wrist snap stuff is an isolated issue now and happened to those that were playing tennis in the dark (maybe you were one of those). The "dangerous" term was a bit exaggerated. The shearing issue on EASI is mainly related to the onehanded backhand and getting the racquet head around. And, I really don't want to get into a philisophical discussion about this when it is clear to me you really don't know what we are truly discussing. I mean put yourself in my shoes, would you?

Soooooo, I really don't need to read your post again because I already commented on everything you said in a logical and effective manner. Bottom-line, I flat out do not agree with you!

Also, my writing style tends to be direct, so if I seem offensive, you probably should take your own advice and relax, read again, and we will talk.

Need a little thicker skin then that my friend.

So bring it on! Let's debate!

[johnyandell]

Guys,

I think that BB is right in recognizing that the wrist release is a natural thing and he may be breaking some new ground in advocating a level of relaxation that causes the wrist to move automatically to laid back and from laid back to release.

BB, correct me if I am wrong here, you are agreeing that the laid back wrist is a key element on the forehand at contact. The only hesitiation I have in this whole thing is that many players have weak hitting arm positions. After a bad turn it's the number one problem on the forehand at every level.

Personally I think most players need to develop this position with the elbow bend being the other vital component somewhat "artificially." If you have that solidly as part of your stroke now you may be in a position to relax more. Same about the hand and arm rotation--if you can't come through wrist back through the hit and smack the ball flat and with moderate topspin keeping this position it's crazy to start trying to rotate your hand like Roger.

So we can probably agree that we see players move in and out of this position at different times to different extremes, depending on grip, level of tension, type of shot, shot location, spin, etc.

It's the nose of the winning horse but let's not forget about the cart...

[lukman41985]

There is nothing new. We are only discovering things better and more precise.

If it's not new, how is it changing tennis instruction, as you are saying? There are aspects of Federer's tecnique that are new to tennis, specificially his incorporation of classical technical elements with modern/extreme technical elements to produce high velocity high spin balls, but you have not hit on it, and rather, I would direct everyone reading this thread, at this point, to disregard this thread and turn to the article John has written about the Federer forehand in the Advanced Tennis section.

Well Federers release is a bit looser that is painfully obvious. It isn't different in form but it is different.

You know what I loved about your article on Flipper's backhand? How the language was simple and how you let the video speak for itself. However, this quotation here is a classic example of why verbal tennis instruction doesn't work. You say it's painfully obvious that Federer's forehand is different from Agassi's because the wrist is looser. How do we know that his wrist is looser? What empirical data are you citing? I need proof, not voodoo. "It isn't different in form but it is different"--that's asinine.

I think, in a way, you are a bit stuck in the past. When I coached at Vic Bradens College he proved that Agassi does not "snap" his wrist through contact a long time ago. It is an optical illusion to think otherwise. The same is true with Federer - he does not snap. However, I am convinced that Federer is a tad looser in his wrist area - that I have no doubt on.

Bill, I'm glad you've had the amazing privilege to work with Vic Braden and I wish I and others had that chance as well. But, I'm speaking for myself here when I refer to the myth of the wrist snap. I'm also speaking for what I still see. I'm not stuck in the past, others are. All I'm saying is that even the commentators talk about wristiness. I am not an instructor, but I can bet that if anything, most students tend to have wristy forehands, and so a theory premised on a relaxed wrist does nothing to help these students, who I believe, as I've said, are the majority of students. Again, you talk about how you're convinced Federer's looser. What convinces you? You offer no support of any kind. There is nothing empirical about this. It is as if you have sought to write a research paper but instead have written an op-ed piece because you only cite your observations and findings, which happen to be void of any valid scientific support or a scientific approach.

In terms of teaching, I don't think it is dangerous at all. I think that is a strong word to use. When a player first starts to play they don't have the ability to have a real loose wrist area, maintain firmness on the handle, and swing allowing the foward acceleration to cause the laid back wrist. They don't have the strength nor the coordination to do so.

Already talked about this above...

There is a big difference between relaxing the wrist and purposely snapping the wrist. I think you are thinking the latter which is what we are not talking about here. We are talking about the relaxation of the wrist during the backswing and staying relatively relaxed throughout the motion. This is a bit different then the teaching of the past which teaches to lay back the wrist firmly and purposely on the backswing instead of letting the motion of the swing do it with a more relaxed wrist.

Again, this does nothing to help the majority of students who are struggling with wristiness in their stroke. Additionally, let me make another point, and I'm deferring to John's work presented in the Your Strokes segment: how many students actually have poor forehands because of a poor wrist release? I would say virtually none. However, almost all students of the game are missing basic elements that are commonalities all great forehands share. The problem with your approach is that it focuses on one small aspect of the forehand and ignores all the other important fundamentals--the silver bullet approach.

Well, I have never told anyone to do what you are indicating above. It is not necessary and way to micro to think like this. No one is talking about SNAPPING or COCKING or MOVING or any other motion. We are talking about accomplishing the forehand motion through a balance of tension and relaxation.

Bill, the racquet path is not a straight line motion that requires just tension and relaxation. The racquet swings on an arc and players adjust the arc/swing path in various ways and I was simply describing one way in which players do this. The counterclockwise wrist motion I was talking about is synonymous with hand/arm rotation--though I don't care to fight over the semantics.

Dont agree! The wrist does release especially from players that maintain a firm wrist up to the contact point of the shot. The wrist must to release (or relax) because the hands normal position is not laid back! You dont walk around with laid back wrists! During a wrist release, the hand relaxes forward in a spring like fashion which can easily be tested by you in front of your computer.

Bill, I never said that the wrist does not release. My point was that focusing on the wrist release doesn't help those students who already have wristy strokes and or other fundamental flaws in their strokes.

So the wrist release does exist and I believe pros are much more relaxed then yesteryear in their fluid movement on the forehand side.

Again, I never said there wasn't a wrist release. But with regard to your second point, I'm not sure. I haven't seen enough old footage to make that argument. Given the total lack of evidence you've used in supporting (or should I say not supporting...) your claims, I'm skeptical of what you're saying.

Also, I am certified with Ray and Becky Browns teaching. The independent/dependent arm motion is true. Today's forehand makes more use of the elbow initiating the forward swing from the shoulder. But there is no doubt that the wrist is relaxed during the back and forward swings in the so-called "modern" forehand. No doubt.

What I really resent is your patronizing tone and how you talk down on others. You are not the sole possesor of truth and you are not able to remove all doubts. Rather what opens our eyes is what we see the great players doing on video. I completely agree with John's notion of an "open evolution." Your problem is is that you speak with so much purported authority that an open, free, fun exchange of ideas is virutally impossible. And this is part of your track record at the Talk Tennis Message Board of tennis-warehouse.com

The rest of the things you said were all in the same vain. I encourage you to let evidence speak for itself and to be open to the ideas of others. You read to rebut, not to understand. It's a frustrating experience to have an exchange of ideas with you. I can't doubt your passion--you have tons of it. But you have even more arrogance.

[lukman41985]

I think that BB is right in recognizing that the wrist release is a natural thing and he may be breaking some new ground in advocating a level of relaxation that causes the wrist to move automatically to laid back and from laid back to release.

I never once stated that there was not a wrist release and that it wasn't natural. What I disagree with is how this is somehow new.

BB, correct me if I am wrong here, you are agreeing that the laid back wrist is a key element on the forehand at contact. The only hesitiation I have in this whole thing is that many players have weak hitting arm positions. After a bad turn it's the number one problem on the forehand at every level. Personally I think most players need to develop this position with the elbow bend being the other vital component somewhat "artificially." If you have that solidly as part of your stroke now you may be in a position to relax more. Same about the hand and arm rotation--if you can't come through wrist back through the hit and smack the ball flat and with moderate topspin keeping this position it's crazy to start trying to rotate your hand like Roger.

This is exactly how I feel. Funny John, you should tell Bill how it's not so bad here in the dark ages.

So we can probably agree that we see players move in and out of this position at different times to different extremes, depending on grip, level of tension, type of shot, shot location, spin, etc.

Yes, we do agree, but that's not new. Your articles did a lot in explaining that but they were written long ago. Therefore this is not a new development. The fact that it is being packaged as being new in somewhat dishonest.

It's the nose of the winning horse but let's not forget about the cart...

Exactly my point. This old (not new) development of the wrist release is something to worry about later. The wrist release occurs after the ball is gone. There are many other key fundamentals that all great forehands share that are more important than the wrist release because they either occur before or during contact. Besides, a wrist release is a natural product of solid fundamentals and a relaxed arm. Bill somehow feels that I'm advocating that forehands should be hit as if there is a cast on one's arm. I'm not Bill, I'm not...

[Bungalow Bill]

I never once stated that there was not a wrist release and that it wasn't natural. What I disagree with is how this is somehow new.

Well you also mentioned that teaching it is dangeorus and other ignorant things. Which I still disagree with. Also, the wrist release itself is not new, I thought I already mentioned this. The wrist release itself was popularized by Agassi when he first came on the seen. How long ago was that?

Although the wrist release itself is not new, how one gets there has evolved to the pojnt where it can be called new because it has reached critical mass. This is where you are splitting hairs and just can't get past yourself.

One of the biggest differences in the modern forehand is the way the wrist lies back and then releases. Another thing that has evolved is the way the racquet is flung to the ball more then yesteryear.

This is exactly how I feel. Funny John, you should tell Bill how it's not so bad here in the dark ages.

Well you can remain in the dark ages because teaching a player to keep a loose wrist throughout the swing motion is NOT DANGEROUS as you seem to think. I am sorry that you were sucked up into bad teaching or thought you could take short cuts and start snapping your wrist, but not all of us bought that bridge.

Yes, we do agree, but that's not new. Your articles did a lot in explaining that but they were written long ago. Therefore this is not a new development. The fact that it is being packaged as being new in somewhat dishonest.

Again, it can be considered new by the shear fact of how the racquet drops in the slot. THE WRIST LAYS BACK THROUGH MOTION, NOT THE WILL OF THE PLAYER. This will be a big change in instruction and has changed in playing.

This old (not new) development of the wrist release is something to worry about later. The wrist release occurs after the ball is gone.

How the racquet is laid back is different and has reached critical mass. The instruction around it will be new although it has not reached critical mass.

The wrist release occurs before, during, and after the shot is made. This was painfully evident when studying film with Agassi in slo-mo stick form with Vic Braden. The wrist began straightening just before contact. When it releases, or begins to allow the hand to move forward, can occur at different times for different purposes, swing paths, and preferences of the player. It is virtually undetecable when the wrist begins to move forward. It is triggered by the deceleration of the lower arm and the contact point.

There are many other key fundamentals that all great forehands share that are more important than the wrist release because they either occur before or during contact. Besides, a wrist release is a natural product of solid fundamentals and a relaxed arm. Bill somehow feels that I'm advocating that forehands should be hit as if there is a cast on one's arm. I'm not Bill, I'm not...

Yeah what are they? What are those KEY FUNDAMENTALS. Please teach me.

And no, the wrist release is not a natural product of solid fundamentals. There are those that do not teach the wrist release before contact and they can instruct players to hit a good forehand.

If you think it is part of the fundamentals, then why in the world would you say it is DANGEROUS to TEACH? the wrist release doesnt need to be taught. What the heck are you saying?

Check this clip out and tell me the wrist released AFTER the shot.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_forehand/rogerfederer_fh_center/rogerfederer_fh_center.html?FedererFHCenterOpenStanceFront.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_forehand/rogerfederer_fh_center/rogerfederer_fh_center.html?FedererFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

What you fail to consider is the player lets the wrist go before contact this is very clear in these video clips. When the wrist begins to allow the hand to move forward from its natural springing mechanism, the wrist has been released.

The hand will move and absorb impact (a stall in movement) during the release. Most of the movement of the hand will occur after contact because the distance it can travel after contact.

In the videos above it is clear that Federer has no restraint on his wrist BEFORE contact. It has been released and there is nothing forcing it to stay back in a laid back position except motion.

[johnyandell]

I think one of the things we need to do here is look at more high speed video--which is coming--of Federer and others.

I will have to agree with BB that on some balls Federer's wrist will start to move before contact--and on others it won't. You see this more clearly in the high speed because you actually have the contact and the frames around it.

I think Lukman is passionate, quite young and gets a little animated (righteous?) in a way that provokes other people--but ignorant is going a little far. Sometimes when you first start to figure things out there is a tendency to generalize to absolute truth and get a little extreme. At the same time, I think BB is very knowledgeable and has been putting his study of the resources of the site to good use... I'm grateful for his input here. And we should respect what he is contributing without getting dismissive.

Let's try to forward this discussion and stay away from the personal and provocative if possible. The tennis is more interesting...

[Bungalow Bill]

I think one of the things we need to do here is look at more high speed video--which is coming--of Federer and others.

I will have to agree with BB that on some balls Federer's wrist will start to move before contact--and on others it won't. You see this more clearly in the high speed because you actually have the contact and the frames around it.

I think Lukman is passionate, quite young and gets a little animated (righteous?) in a way that provokes other people--but ignorant is going a little far. Sometimes when you first start to figure things out there is a tendency to generalize to absolute truth and get a little extreme. At the same time, I think BB is very knowledgeable and has been putting his study of the resources of the site to good use... I'm grateful for his input here. And we should respect what he is contributing without getting dismissive.

Let's try to forward this discussion and stay away from the personal and provocative if possible. The tennis is more interesting...

I think Luke is a great guy and if we need to hit the reset button, we probably should.

We can get all caught up in the word "new" and use Websters Dictionary to precisely define it. I really don't care what word we use to describe something that has evolved or improved or is performed in a different way.

I think we both know that the wrist is already "released" or "relaxed" more in today's tennis sooner rather then later.There is very little tension in the wrist for today's forehand. The player is able to propel the hand forward into the ball before, during, and after the contact point. It really depends on what the player is trying to do.

So let's reset, or restart, and get back on topic. I really dont feel I need to apoligize, because I did not mean anything personal in my original thread to Luke, but if an apoligy is needed to keep this thread going in a positive direction then so be it - no pride here.

[johnyandell]

I don't think we need to go to contrition and apologies. I think we just need to be slightly less aggressive in agreeing to disagree and keep it at the level of honestly shared opinions. Otherwise you end up with something like that crazy Wegner versus the world thread over there on TW. That's the exact reason, why, sadly, I had to break off communication with Oscar when I was at Tennisone--when the dogma and personal ego completely dominated the tone of the exchange.

[lukman41985]

Bill,
I'm sorry. I do get a little riled up. Maybe we are getting caught up in the semantics. Maybe what we each need to do is to send in videos of what we're talking about. I totally agree with you that the wrist isn't forced into a laid back motion, that it's natural. Let's forget about whether or not it's new. I really want to follow through with this video idea. Problem is that I'm in the middle of finals and will be spending my summer in Pakistan--maybe even seeing the great Mahboob Khan! If I find some video equipment, I'll go ahead and send it in. Let's just keep the discussion going. Like I've said, I really admire your work. Your last article on Flipper's one-hander was awesome. John's right, I do get a little righteous. I'm just sensitive to authority. What I want is a free exchange of ideas that's fun. We can go forward with that--I see that now. So let's get to it!

Sincerely,
Lukman

[Bungalow Bill]

Bill,
I'm sorry. I do get a little riled up. Maybe we are getting caught up in the semantics. Maybe what we each need to do is to send in videos of what we're talking about. I totally agree with you that the wrist isn't forced into a laid back motion, that it's natural. Let's forget about whether or not it's new. I really want to follow through with this video idea. Problem is that I'm in the middle of finals and will be spending my summer in Pakistan--maybe even seeing the great Mahboob Khan! If I find some video equipment, I'll go ahead and send it in. Let's just keep the discussion going. Like I've said, I really admire your work. Your last article on Flipper's one-hander was awesome. John's right, I do get a little righteous. I'm just sensitive to authority. What I want is a free exchange of ideas that's fun. We can go forward with that--I see that now. So let's get to it!

Sincerely,
Lukman

All of us get righteous in what we think is true. I think is it commendable that you have such passion for this game.

I also need to step back and ask myself what the poster is trying to say and hopefully be able to rephrase it so I understand.

Let's discuss this wrist thing. Let's discuss what is a release exactly. That way we are comparing apples to apples. We both are knowledgable and both of us seem to like getting into the technical things about a stroke. So let's enjoy that.

There is nothing absolute in tennis. What I find to be true is most likely going to have to be generalized because someone else (Agassi for instance) may not perform it exactly to spec. So I think if we ask ourselves, what is generally happening today in professional strokes we can then avoid labelling things with "new" or other words that may not quite describe something properly.

I am totally with you that the wrist release has been happening well before Agassi's time. Lot's of things we consider "new" have already been invented. That invcludes the twohanded backhand, western grip, the high elbow takeback, and the open stance. I used the word "new" in relative terms because very few things are really new.

So let's reset and bring in those videos!

[bottle]

Sludge is in the Eye of the Beholder

I'm in complete agreement with Bungalow Bill that the racket is "flung to the ball more than yesteryear," and am reasonably sure that "yesteryear" is a word just right for BB to use. But I wonder about birds on any website who still haven't figured out whether we ought to hit through the ball a lot or a little. I've never been convinced that Roger hits through the ball more than everybody else-- his shot seems one of huge spin generation and just a little hit-through.

I don't mind there still being a serious question here, but I'm going to go with my own first-hand experience (the best anyone has) and my own improving game. If you, John Yandell, or you, BB, can convince me that Roger's
racket goes through seven imaginary balls in the fashion Ray Brown recommends, I'll renounce my fascination with Oscar's technique forever.

Right now, on FH, I'm experimenting with a gentle fling or floating of the racket barrel out to the ball (on the fourth count of a feel-for-the-ball cadence) broken off by a sharp, muscular, leftward wrapping of bent forearm in toward the gut-- fast enough to send blood to the fingertips. This doesn't actually happen since my Eastern grip dictates a fairly long arm to start (from Ray Brown). The combination of revolving upper arm and contracting whole
arm at elbow produces upward direction. The elbow rises a microsecond later.

The whole effect (forget the details if your attention span is short!) is of a stone on the end of a string with the other end suddenly pulled sharply left
(Oscar's analogy in his DVD "Advanced Tennis Techniques)." My own analogy is the classic line of skaters with the last three or four to the left digging in their skates in a most muscular fashion to send the last skater (the one way down right) to splatdom against a barn. You'll find no hint here as to who that person is.

The racket, of course, doesn't splat against the ball but rather scrapes it.
And I sympathized entirely with Lukman in his exchange with Bungalow Bill
whether everybody now is disgustingly close bosom buddies or not.

[johnyandell]

C'mon Bottle, you don't want to be convinced of anything!

You want to play with words, confuse and possbily provoke people, and then go as many rounds of that as people will put up with!

Don't ask me to intepret Ray and/or Oscar. I'll stick with the primary sources.

This whole concept of "Hitting Thru" is confused and confusing. Viewed from the top, the swing is a curve, from the inside out to the ball and then back across the body.

Because the motion is not straight "Hitting Thru" is a relative term. How close is the path of the racket to the path of the ball. The more the player "hits thru" the closer these two.

So with Roger, and all players, it's not Either/Or. It depends on what he is trying to do with the ball, where he is in the court, where the ball is coming from, how fast, how high etc.

He can either swing more along the line of the shot than anyone "hit thru" as below:





OR he can break it off so that the two converge and diverge probably more quickly than anyone:



Or, he can do ANYTHING in between.

All this is discussed in detail with use of the high speed footage in the Federer forehand articles.

[bottle]

No Coincide--at Right Angles

Oh sure, I want to provoke people. Lukman wants to provoke people. The truth is, Lukman and I were both goaded on separate websites by the worst berserko ever. You've failed to put the blame in the right place.

That said, I'm looking at the sequences of Roger you've put up here (and thanks). Clearly, though, they're the wrong sequences. Are you trying to confuse people or something? Roger catches a piece of the ball, and no more,
in both films. The racket frame is going sideways, at right angles to the path of the ball!

Is there weight in the shots? A ton. But that comes from body rotation with
the much faster sideways throw embedded in it, solidly connected to it,
transferring it out to the strings.

The flat forehands on the tour seem to belong to a few women.

[lukman41985]

bottle,
I see what you're saying. But I really think the issue is one of swing plane. Check out John's last post and really think about what he's saying. A good thing to do would be to check out some rear views of Andre Agassi's forehand (especially the arm action ones). I see what you're saying about scraping the ball. You're right, and John made this point as well, the racquet isn't pushed through the ball on a straight line but is swung on an arc. But there's a continuum here. Noone is saying it's black and white--it's not. It's not about old, school flat technqiue or new school scrapy modern technique. I really think that the idea of swing plane and trying to visualize what the racquet is doing in 3-D is the way to go. A simple exercise is to use just your hand and try to visualize yourself hitting forehands. Your palm's the racquet face. Now, turn the shoulders, stretch that left arm, and swing the palm and direct the ball via imagination. Just think about it...

P.S. Thanks for your support. We're ALL passionate students of the game--it's easy to get carried away!