Federer Clip! Changing the way we play, changing tennis instruction!

[Bungalow Bill]

Does he? I think he does. I think his wrist is not that firm and uses the acceleration going forward to cause the laid back wrist. I think that when the arm slows down the hand is flung forward (modern day wrist release). I think he pulls the racket or elbow forward from the shoulder and the shoulder turn follows. What do you think?

[shootermcmarc0]

Its like his racquet just comes along for the ride. The racquet seems to be dropping still while he's swinging forward. I don't really know if that has an effect on anything, just thought it was interesting.

[Bungalow Bill]

Its like his racquet just comes along for the ride. The racquet seems to be dropping still while he's swinging forward. I don't really know if that has an effect on anything, just thought it was interesting.

Yes, it really does. The hand and the wrist is very relaxed but has just enough tension to sustain a good path with the racket head.

[makhan67]

The video did not play. I waited quite awhile but I could not move it.

Any way, I have analyzed his forehand at the TW forums. Federer is unique in his forehand:

-- Everything is normal till the upper part of the loopy backswing.

-- In the lower part of the loop and at the start of the forward swing, Federer causes his palm-wrist-forearm to form 90 degree angle. Now this is an extreme case of "laidback wrist" and because of this bend at the wrist the rest of his arm is rather straight which is also unique.

-- From this point of the forward swing through contact his wrist fires forward generating tremendous racket-head speed; however, this forward march of the wrist is 'stabilized' at (the force of) contact; he hit through the ball with rather firm wrist/straight arm, but then in the follow-through the arm is bent the normal way .. bent at elbow!

This uniqueness also results in some blazing mishits in very very tight situations (French Open against Nadal).

PS: I have also sent my article "Tactical Planning for Advance Players" to our Guru, John Yandell. He has confirmed that he has received it!

Good day.

Mahboob Khan
Tennis Program Director
Islamabad Club
Pakistan
makhan67@hotmail.com

[shootermcmarc0]

I went out and hit today (despite the 40 degree weather) for about an hour and a half. One thing I found was that it took me a while to get a feel for the release and letting the racquet just follow where my hand is taking it. Whenever I wanted to pound the ball, I felt my wrist flex at times, and the ball didn't go where I wanted it. After slowing my swing down a little but, I got the feel of it and was able to create effortless power. I guess it depends on your learning curve, I still need practice with it. I was surprised that timing wouldn't be an issue. Its just a matter of getting the wrist to stop flexing during the movements.

[Bungalow Bill]

I went out and hit today (despite the 40 degree weather) for about an hour and a half. One thing I found was that it took me a while to get a feel for the release and letting the racquet just follow where my hand is taking it. Whenever I wanted to pound the ball, I felt my wrist flex at times, and the ball didn't go where I wanted it. After slowing my swing down a little but, I got the feel of it and was able to create effortless power. I guess it depends on your learning curve, I still need practice with it. I was surprised that timing wouldn't be an issue. Its just a matter of getting the wrist to stop flexing during the movements.

Yes, but you also learned an important lesson. Your limitations. So, I would suggest for the next month or so, practice hitting a ball no harder then your discovered "effortless" power zone. That is your rally zone. Go out and ball after ball learn to hit to targets on the court until you can do it in your sleep.

This will give you time to prepare your muscles (grow in strength), develop your timing, and be able to move the ball around. Pounding the ball or increasing rackethead speed even faster requires excellent timing and your ability to control the racket head. It will happen but now is the time to enjoy your discovery and really work it into your game.

[KingBugsy]

One of the most interesting points about Fed's FH is how far away his elbow is from his body. Sometimes his hitting arm is quite straight. This seems rather counter to most technical instruction I have read... What's the deal?

[Bungalow Bill]

One of the most interesting points about Fed's FH is how far away his elbow is from his body. Sometimes his hitting arm is quite straight. This seems rather counter to most technical instruction I have read... What's the deal?

I think when someone learns the forehand it is important that proper fundamentals are used. As a player advances, a players preference and how their body likes to do something influences things. Sometimes these preferences improve things, remain neutral, or become a bad habit within a pro's stroke.

I dont like a player copying the "arm out" shot from him. It is too far away from the body for me to be comfortable I am developing someone correctly.

Bottom-line, Federer has great command of his body which most of us dont have. Federer practices way more than us and can probably do things we can't. The key thing to analyze is the looseness in his arm can be duplicated.

Also, keep in mind Federer has a vast variety of ways he hits his forehand!

[shootermcmarc0]

Also, keep in mind Federer has a vast variety of ways he hits his forehand!

In his match against Coria, there was this one shot he hit where his swing looked like a normal drive but instead it was a shot that went high over the net and landed about a 2 feet passed the service line near the sideline. Strange part was that his finish was across the body, seems like it should be more of a wiper motion. So aside from the variety of ways he hits his forehand, is the variety of ways the ball can come off his racquet.

[Bungalow Bill]

In his match against Coria, there was this one shot he hit where his swing looked like a normal drive but instead it was a shot that went high over the net and landed about a 2 feet passed the service line near the sideline. Strange part was that his finish was across the body, seems like it should be more of a wiper motion. So aside from the variety of ways he hits his forehand, is the variety of ways the ball can come off his racquet.

Federer is one incredible player. Lots to learn from him.

[lukman41985]

Bill,
I don't really see it. I don't think his wrist release is any different than that of any player. Two frames after contact, the wrist is still laid back. 3 frames after contact, Agassi's wrist releases as well (therefore, this is not a new development, I don't think):



I think in terms of teaching, it can be dangerous to tell students not to keep their wrist firm. I know when I first started playing, I thought pros snapped the wrist through contact. It's my feeling, many still believe this to be the case. However, many realize snapping the wrist left through contact (if you are a righty) is not the way to go, and many focus instead on rolling the wrist counter clockwise. This movement, and I think I'm in disagreement with John here, is independent of arm rotation. I think hand rotation is somewhat of a misnomer because it doesn't really indicate the role the wrist plays. I don't think the wrist releases, atleast not to the left, but does move counter clockwise (if you are right-handed). For me, when I'm not using this wrist movement, I really seem to hit the ball flatter. To borrow a term from Ray and Becky Brown, of EASI tennis, I think this movement creates a "shearing" effect and creates more spin, as well as creating a higher trajectory shot compared to when the wrist does not move in this fashion. What's amazing is how Federer, Agassi, et al. use this wrist movement in high speed rallies because if the racquet rolls upward too much, if there is too much counterclockwise wrist movement, the ball tends to sail. And if this movement isn't perfectly timed, you seem to get mis-hits because you come off the ball too quickly and frame it. So wonderful point by Mr. Mahboob Khan about Fed's misses against Nadal. Mr. Khan, by the way, I will be in Pakistan this winter. I hope we can have a hit. Please send me your information. My e-mail is lahmed@learnlink.emory.edu.

[shootermcmarc0]

federer also has the different kinds of wrist releases. agassi seems pretty consistent with the way his wrist is positioned at contact.

[Bungalow Bill]

federer also has the different kinds of wrist releases. agassi seems pretty consistent with the way his wrist is positioned at contact.

I happen to see the same thing. I notice it depends on what he is trying to do with the ball.

[Bungalow Bill]

Bill,
I don't really see it. I don't think his wrist release is any different than that of any player. Two frames after contact, the wrist is still laid back. 3 frames after contact, Agassi's wrist releases as well (therefore, this is not a new development, I don't think):

There is nothing new. We are only discovering things better and more precise.

Well Federers release is a bit looser that is painfully obvious. It isn't different in form but it is different.

I think in terms of teaching, it can be dangerous to tell students not to keep their wrist firm. I know when I first started playing, I thought pros snapped the wrist through contact. It's my feeling, many still believe this to be the case.

I think, in a way, you are a bit stuck in the past. When I coached at Vic Bradens College he proved that Agassi does not "snap" his wrist through contact a long time ago. It is an optical illusion to think otherwise. The same is true with Federer - he does not snap. However, I am convinced that Federer is a tad looser in his wrist area - that I have no doubt on.

In terms of teaching, I don't think it is dangerous at all. I think that is a strong word to use. When a player first starts to play they don't have the ability to have a real loose wrist area, maintain firmness on the handle, and swing allowing the foward acceleration to cause the laid back wrist. They don't have the strength nor the coordination to do so.

There is a big difference between relaxing the wrist and purposely snapping the wrist. I think you are thinking the latter which is what we are not talking about here. We are talking about the relaxation of the wrist during the backswing and staying relatively relaxed throughout the motion. This is a bit different then the teaching of the past which teaches to lay back the wrist firmly and purposely on the backswing instead of letting the motion of the swing do it with a more relaxed wrist.

However, many realize snapping the wrist left through contact (if you are a righty) is not the way to go, and many focus instead on rolling the wrist counter clockwise.

Well, I have never told anyone to do what you are indicating above. It is not necessary and way to micro to think like this. No one is talking about SNAPPING or COCKING or MOVING or any other motion. We are talking about accomplishing the forehand motion through a balance of tension and relaxation.

This movement, and I think I'm in disagreement with John here, is independent of arm rotation. I think hand rotation is somewhat of a misnomer because it doesn't really indicate the role the wrist plays. I don't think the wrist releases, atleast not to the left

Dont agree! The wrist does release especially from players that maintain a firm wrist up to the contact point of the shot. The wrist must to release (or relax) because the hands normal position is not laid back! You dont walk around with laid back wrists! During a wrist release, the hand relaxes forward in a spring like fashion which can easily be tested by you in front of your computer.

So the wrist release does exist and I believe pros are much more relaxed then yesteryear in their fluid movement on the forehand side.

Also, I am certified with Ray and Becky Browns teaching. The independent/dependent arm motion is true. Today's forehand makes more use of the elbow initiating the forward swing from the shoulder. But there is no doubt that the wrist is relaxed during the back and forward swings in the so-called "modern" forehand. No doubt.

To borrow a term from Ray and Becky Brown, of EASI tennis, I think this movement creates a "shearing" effect and creates more spin, as well as creating a higher trajectory shot compared to when the wrist does not move in this fashion.

Well, we are worlds apart as I dont agree with you once again. You really need to do the things you are talking about instead of thinking about it or simply reading into things. The shearing effect is an over exaggeration on your part. It seems you keep forgetting that the hand also has tension on the racquet and the wrist still has some tension to maintain its fixed position. But it is definetly looser than old teaching.

What's amazing is how Federer, Agassi, et al. use this wrist movement in high speed rallies because if the racquet rolls upward too much, if there is too much counterclockwise wrist movement, the ball tends to sail. And if this movement isn't perfectly timed, you seem to get mis-hits because you come off the ball too quickly and frame it. So wonderful point by Mr. Mahboob Khan about Fed's misses against Nadal. Mr. Khan, by the way, I will be in Pakistan this winter. I hope we can have a hit. Please send me your information. My e-mail is lahmed@learnlink.emory.edu.

Yeah, I really dont agree with you at all. You brought up some half points in your thinking above but most of your "thinking" is very dated. The motion doesn't need to be perfectly timed to hit a solid forehand.

I think you have exaggerated this time around and you really don't understand what is being discussed. I think you are trying to understand but there is something in your thinking that is causing some mental blocks in what we are discussing. All I can say is we are not talking about:

1. Snapping the wrist

2. Anything dangerous

3. Things that lead to shearing

We are simply talking about the wrist is relaxing sooner rather than later. We are talking about how the wrist lays back through a sudden change in motion rahter then a flexing of certain muscles in the forearm.

There is a wrist release and it is here to stay. Sorry!

[shootermcmarc0]

I remember hitting with a "forced" laid back wrist before and I experienced a golfer's elbow-like feeling. Funny thing is, I wasn't even hitting the ball that hard. Since I've been using the wrist release, I've never felt that pain and I'm hitting the ball better with less effort. For me at least, one thing I've noticed is that my arm feels a lot more relaxed when I let my wrist act on its own natural way. Before there was a lot of tension in my arm, but now it feels looser.