Two questions for Bill on the serve...

[gzhpcu]

First, welcome Bill!

Two questions, I would appreciate your opinion on:

1) the role of the wrist on the serve: if you look at the Roddick supination discussion under the advanced tennis section, you will see that there are differences of opinion as to whether the wrist flexes on the serve, or more precisely, whether any flexing which might occur (if it does occur), actually contributes to the serve. I thought that wrist motion was more relevant to the smash.

2) My question on the Tanner serve: How was he really able to serve so fast, with so little knee bend, body coil, just a fast concerted movement?

Thanks,

[Bungalow Bill]

First, welcome Bill!

Two questions, I would appreciate your opinion on:

1) the role of the wrist on the serve: if you look at the Roddick supination discussion under the advanced tennis section, you will see that there are differences of opinion as to whether the wrist flexes on the serve, or more precisely, whether any flexing which might occur (if it does occur), actually contributes to the serve. I thought that wrist motion was more relevant to the smash.

The role of the wrist in a serve is to not have a role. The wrist subjects itself to the mercy of the force that is generating up the arm.

In other words, the arm needs to be as loose as possible. This is what will transfer maximum energy to the strings. The arm includes the shoulder, the elbow, and the wrist joints, even the hand and fingers.

The wrist needs to whip or bend in both directions quickly because of the forces and the weight of the racket at play during the serve motion.

If you relax your hand/wrist completely right now (yes, right now) and flop your hand back and forth (I am no expert in biomechanic terminology) you will see it flop back into a laid back state and then as the elbow stops moving forward, the hand sort of flops forward. Right? That is the role of the wrist. It is to allow and unhinder the hand to move forward and back as quickly as possible for maximum speed into the ball.

When you hear big servers hit the ball, you will hear a loud "POP". It just sounds different. Sort of scary. The wrist helps make this sound by remaining "out of the picture" and allowing the hand to move unhindered.

Now, in the above exercise, when do you think you should make contact with the ball. Pretend the palm of your hand is the strings. When? YES! When the palm is near perpendicular to the ground, or the table, or straight up! You are transferring maximum energy to the ball with a loose wrist and you are making SQUARE contact with the face of the racket on the ball!

So when your arm drops back behind your hitting shoulder for the so-called "backscratch position" as soon as the arm changes direction to go up, the hand (being loose) will be thrown back into a laid back position because the wrist is not firm and therefore "out of the picture" it is not consciously controllin the racket head or the hand. If you did do it consciously, you would short circuit the serve.

It will go up and up that way right up until the time your elbow extends which allows your wrist to then move forward because of the SUDDEN stop from the extended elbow which helps fling the lower arm forward and eventually the hand forward and flops over.

Now some people say that there has got to be muscle force going on. I dont think so. First, there is littl body fat on these tennis players, so muscle definition is pretty common. Also, when my arm is a loose state, I can flop my wrist back and forth and see my muscles buldge a little (even if I have 22% body fat). Additionally, when the ball hits the racket, there will be a little "tensing" going on because of shearing, racket wobble, racket face control, and the weight of the ball hitting the strings.

So, seeing muscle definition in the forearm area does not mean they purposely flexed their muscle or forced the "so-called" and mythical "wrist snap".

2) My question on the Tanner serve: How was he really able to serve so fast, with so little knee bend, body coil, just a fast concerted movement?

Thanks,

Yes, Roscoe Tanner was a great great server. He got his power from his compact motion. Sometimes a compact motion is the ticket for a player that has trouble generating power in his serve frustrated using the traditional longer motion.

The compact motion (which Roddick also uses and is similar to Roscoe's) is usually seen with a "low" toss or I should say a toss that reaches its climax when contact is made. This forces the player to wind up quickly and send the energy into the ball as fast as he can (mainly due to the timing needed for the lower or more neutral toss).

What I learned from Vic Braden is Roscoe also used a unique toss to help further increase his power and the efficiency and effectiveness of his serve using his quick "wind-up".

He used the "arching" toss.

In other words, a lot of people toss the ball with the arm going straight up. The arm is straight as well. Roscoe used and "arching" toss where he brought the arm back towards his body and then sort of released the ball up and back out into the court with the ball arching out into the court and toward his opponent. It wasn't straight up and straight down.

So in essence he launched himself to the ball from his arching toss.

Maybe John has some film on Roscoes serve, I have not checked the archive yet.

Also, I am going to try and post my WAVE analogy to help you understand the serve.

[gzhpcu]

Thanks Bill. In respect to just keeping the wrist loose, I agree with you. The motion is so rapid, how can you possibly "force" anything.

John does not have any video clips of Tanner. Do you think it would be possible to get some from Vic for this site?

In respect to the arching toss: was this to get the ball as far ahead as possible?

[Bungalow Bill]

Thanks Bill. In respect to just keeping the wrist loose, I agree with you. The motion is so rapid, how can you possibly "force" anything.

John does not have any video clips of Tanner. Do you think it would be possible to get some from Vic for this site?

In respect to the arching toss: was this to get the ball as far ahead as possible?

I dont know what Vic has in his vast library. I dont know what kind of constraints he might have in using them. Maybe John would be interested in calling Vic about it.

With Roscoe Tanner and his arcing toss it could be for several reasons:

1. To get the ball in the court quick

2. To get forward movement on the ball (added mph)

3. To compliment an upward and outward motion that added power.

It really is an efficient toss. Roddick does it as well (not the same way as Tanner).

[GMann]

Tanner serve

I think that BB is referring to the arching toss that starts from the right side of the body (assuming a right hander using his left hand for the toss) and ends up landing slightly to the left of or in line with the player's head. I believe that John Yandell has also discussed this toss extensively in his analyses of Sampras's serve. He even shows that it is similar to Roddick's in his most recent analysis of Roddick's serve.

My big question is what is it that makes Tanner and Roddick so different from every other great athlete and great tennis player. There are many good athletes that also have low tosses, good motions and they try to incorporate some of the things that both Tanner and Roddick do but no one can seem to duplicate them. Tanner was only about 6 ft. tall max and the ball would explode off his racket (whether flat or spin) like nobody else. This is a mystery that if anyone can can figure out would be my hero for life.

For your information, footage of Tanner's serve appears on Vic Braden's serve video. I've studied it and couldn't find any gem that explains why his motion was so unique. [Note: he actually stepped through with his right foot which was the style in those days]. It's a very good motion and he appears to be strong and flexible, but a guy like Safin is probably twice as strong and coordinated as both Tanner or Roddick and he even has a very good serve motion, yet Safin can't hit a serve as big as these guys can. There has to be a secret that explains why Roddick and Tanner are in a class of their own.

[And, don't talk to me about Sampras because I believe that he might be even more gifted physically than Roddick or Tanner. I know a lot of you on the site like to use Sampras as a model for the serve and not Roddick or Tanner, but my opinion is that Sampras's motion is even more difficult for us mere mortals to duplicate in terms of generating great power. Sampras's motion is good for us mortals to learn how to hit a serve consistently and to generate good spin, but to get great power from that motion one must be unusually flexible, coordinated and strong. In fact, I am willing to bet that if Sampras had spent his time trying to copy Roddick's motion that he could hit it 160 mph. Of course, all of this is speculation and presumably these players gravitated to the motion they use because it became more natural to them.]

[Bungalow Bill]

I think that BB is referring to the arching toss that starts from the right side of the body (assuming a right hander using his left hand for the toss) and ends up landing slightly to the left of or in line with the player's head. I believe that John Yandell has also discussed this toss extensively in his analyses of Sampras's serve. He even shows that it is similar to Roddick's in his most recent analysis of Roddick's serve.

My big question is what is it that makes Tanner and Roddick so different from every other great athlete and great tennis player. There are many good athletes that also have low tosses, good motions and they try to incorporate some of the things that both Tanner and Roddick do but no one can seem to duplicate them. Tanner was only about 6 ft. tall max and the ball would explode off his racket (whether flat or spin) like nobody else. This is a mystery that if anyone can can figure out would be my hero for life.

For your information, footage of Tanner's serve appears on Vic Braden's serve video. I've studied it and couldn't find any gem that explains why his motion was so unique. [Note: he actually stepped through with his right foot which was the style in those days]. It's a very good motion and he appears to be strong and flexible, but a guy like Safin is probably twice as strong and coordinated as both Tanner or Roddick and he even has a very good serve motion, yet Safin can't hit a serve as big as these guys can. There has to be a secret that explains why Roddick and Tanner are in a class of their own.

Certainly Tanner, Roddick, and Sampras are unique and gifted. But I really believe they have the DNA that allows them to hit that ball so hard. They move so quickly through the motion.

They also have an extremely unique combination of flexibility and strength in the shoulder area and can really increase the speed of their arm quickly. I sort of look at this like the many fast sprinters in this world. A lot of them are world class sprinters but only a handful are on a level of their own. They can really pump those legs and arms.

[gzhpcu]

GMann,
I have Vic's video on the serve, but unfortunately, it just concentrates on the upper body, and specifically the toss. I would like to see a whole body motion video front and side. I saw Tanner serving at Wimbeldon in person. His motion looked very compact, smooth and efficient. No frills, just blinding speed.

[Bungalow Bill]

GMann,
I have Vic's video on the serve, but unfortunately, it just concentrates on the upper body, and specifically the toss. I would like to see a whole body motion video front and side. I saw Tanner serving at Wimbeldon in person. His motion looked very compact, smooth and efficient. No frills, just blinding speed.

I like your last sentence on Roscoe, "no frills, just blinding speed". Perfect explanation of his serve.

[johnyandell]

An interesting question would be the amount and type of spin, but we'll never know. Remember when he hit a 130mph for Johnny Carson on the Tonight Show??

[Bungalow Bill]

An interesting question would be the amount and type of spin, but we'll never know. Remember when he hit a 130mph for Johnny Carson on the Tonight Show??

Yes, I do, I also remember the look on Johnny Carson's face.

[GMann]

Roscoe's Serve

GMann,
I have Vic's video on the serve, but unfortunately, it just concentrates on the upper body, and specifically the toss. I would like to see a whole body motion video front and side. I saw Tanner serving at Wimbeldon in person. His motion looked very compact, smooth and efficient. No frills, just blinding speed.

At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to outdo Phil on who can be the most obsessed collector of Tanner serve research material, I actually have a vhs video which shows Roscoe's entire serve motion including his legs. The only qualifier is that it was filmed even more recently than Vic Braden's video so Roscoe is probably 40 years old; nevertheless it does appear to completely capture the motion as I remember it. The video clip is on a very obscure tennis video series that Roscoe put out probably in the 80's called "Simply Tennis" by Tanner Tennis of America in Lookout Mountain, TN.

I have viewed this clip many times in fast and slow motion. At first blush, it's very difficult to detect anything particularly unique and there appears to be nothing special with the legs at all. For example, there is no unusually deep knee bend like Andy, Pete or Boris Becker. The only modern serve that the motion is similar to is Goran Ivanesevic's. Both players seem to really move their bodies very quickly through their motion; (obviously, the lower toss probably encourages, if not forces, the speed of their movements); there is no long or obvious "load up"; the motion is incredibly fast, simple, compact and uncomplicated. With both Ivo and Roscoe there is this sense that hitting the serve takes them only 1 second and very little effort or deliberation; like they're just doing a very simple chore like swatting a fly after turning their shoulders. The toss is no higher than the contact point and, as is particularly the case with Roscoe, when he hits it at normal speed it really looks like he is hitting the ball as the toss/ball is rising. We all know that Vic Braden debunked this illusion by pointing out that the toss isn't actually rising but it stays at the contact point for a long enough period so he can hit it before the ball starts to come down.

The ONLY thing that did jump out at me was the sense that the last leg of his kinetic chain is incredibly fast and powerful. His forearm coming through on the last link to the chain looks like it could crush a brick. When his arm straightens out and the forearm comes up into contact, that forearm is flying like nobody's business and with the strenght and weight of his entire body contained in it. Also, there is the clear sense that the forearm is connected to energy he started to generate in his quads. It's as if an electrical wire (or fire hose) is connected from his quads to his forearm where energy passes directly from one point to the next. This is similas to what BB, John Yandell, Pat Dougherty and Doug King have talked about regarding the energy ball rising up through the body/kinetic chain and where the arm is really a "conduit" of the kinetic energy/power that was originally created in the quadriceps. There is that clear sense that by staying relaxed Roscoe can just take that power which started below his waist and shoot it through his forearm and onto the ball. I'm willing to bet that the forearm itself feels like it's doing absoutely nothing but transmitting. The forearm probably has virtually zero muscle stress on it and it feels like it is creating nothing on its own. This is probably also why Roddick says he feels like he can serve for 5 sets and his arm never hurts nor gets tired; he probably has a very similar feeling on his serve where his energy is generated almost entirely in his quads and all he has to do is keeping moving that energy up his body until it gets to the ball. I started thinking this way and went out to try my own serve. The result was I felt like I could serve as hard as ever with the least amount of effort and I could get it in the court almost every time. It would be nice if I could repeat this feeling every day.

I'm going into all this detail with the hope that John Y., BB, Pat and Doug King can help us figure this thing out and use that information for ourselves. I realize that Tanner, Roddick, Ivo and Pete are "freaks" but I am stubbornly holding onto the hope that these guys also have tricks to their motion that us mere mortals can learn. Please tell me that we can learn this stuff and it's not only for those lucky ones born with the "live arm."

[johnyandell]

Send in that clip and we'll put it up in the Forum. Think it'd be fun for everyone to see. You can send the tape to me if you want. I wish we had more footage of him, Steffi, and a few other players, but to be honest in this case it's more curiosity than coaching value.

Naturally it's interesting to speculate about his bizarre motion but if you ask me, more damage has been done to more serves by the Roscoe theory that almost any other idea in tennis teaching. It's a myth I call the quest for the magic bullet--to find the one scrap of information that will somehow change everything...

When you see one or two or three (Kevin Curren) good players with a particular technical style but none of the other players have it, that should tell you something. Talent is talent and who knows what the combination is with technique for these guys--maybe they were born to quick serve. And god bless them. I have been entertained by them all.

It's still a free country (at least for the time being...) and every player is free to play however they want. And sometimes it's easier to chase the magic bullet (and more fun) than it is to do the hard work of actually trying to develop something you have a chance of perfecting. And after the first magic bullet doesn't work--well there is always another one on the horizon.

It's definitely possible for any player who really wants it to achieve their potential in tennis. And I think the answers to that are (mostly) right here on the site. But in my view this particular path is not productive in the long run... Just my opinion.

[GMann]

I appreciate your opinion, John. Since I am not the technical type, my first question is how can I send you the video tape when it's in VHS tape form? In other words, I don't have it on my computer it's a separate VHS videocassette? And, if I send you the videocassette, will I get it back?

With regard to your skepticisim about Roscoe, I certainly don't disagree that he might be one in a million and that his motion might be a disaster for most people, but I still think that there must be some things to learn from studying his motion. You've similarly said that you don't think that Roddick is a good model for most people because his motion is incredibly hard to duplicate but you seemed to agree that it was well worth studying and trying to learn something from it and that's why you went into such an in depth analysis.

Since Roscoe might be a little bit extreme, I strongly recommend that you focus instead on Ivo's motion because I think that they are 90% similar. Roscoe is just 10% more extreme in that his toss is slightly lower. I don't recall seeing your analysis of Ivo's serve and I would love to see that some day.

[johnyandell]

You can send it to:

John Yandell
Tennisplayer.net
828 Franklin St #204
San Francisco, Ca 94102

And I'd agree Roscoe and Goran are probably similar. I take your point about Roddick, but there are certain things in his motion that are part of the set of commonalities that most people can try to develop. And everyone is talking about him anyway so we might as well try to understand what the hell is happening. It's a smaller list with Goran and Roscoe. The thing that made them effective, the superfast motion, is the one thing that probably no player (or one in a million...) should try to emulate. But since there has been so much talk about this let's take a look. It's interesting theoretically at the minimum...there are a couple of questions I'd like to ask of that video myself.

And yes I'll send it back.

[gzhpcu]

Thanks GMann (glad to see that I am not the only one obsessed by Roscoe's service motion...)
Thanks John for offering to put it up so we can see it!
Really looking forward to it!