2015 Barclays ATP World Tour Finals…ATP 1500...London, England

[klacr]

Great analysis on the serve don_budge!

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

The Andy Murray Ball Toss…compared to Roger Federer

I also think the ball toss is too much to the right and the left arm flails wildly out of the back after contact as a way of counter balancing that problem.

Thanks guys…Murray's motion is sort of "interesting" (read convoluted). It has lot's of "friction" compared to the seamless Federer motion.

The Federer Ball Toss...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide2.mov

The hands fall together and at frame #24 the hands reach a point where they are both essentially hanging straight down from his shoulders.

At frame #25 they both start back “up and out” together. Both hands are pushing away from the body which in a sense is a contradiction of the old “down together, up together” mantra. Actually it is more “down together, up and out together” lest we oversimplify.

At frame #24 Federer actually releases the toss and notice how far in front of his body his hand is.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide1.mov

Here is a different look from the front side view. See how his hands are going out together after going down together.

The Murray Ball Toss...

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andy_murray/am_serve/am_1st_serve/am_1st_serve.html?AM1stSDeuceSide2.mov

Andy Murray on the other hand reaches his low point in his arc downwards at frame #18 but for 3 more frames he continues to draw his hand towards his back foot so now his hand is well on the inside of his front leg.

Frame #30 shows Andy releasing the ball and notice how much further behind the baseline his hand is than that of Federer’s. Instead of out together, Andy merely takes his hand straight forwards and since his shoulders have rotated nearly ninety degrees or more he is now lifting his hand straight at the “Waterford Chrystal” sign in front of him. Quite a contrast with the forward tossing motion of Federer.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andy_murray/am_serve/am_1st_serve/am_1st_serve.html?AM1stSDeuceSide1.mov

In this front side view it is more obvious as to the motion that Andy's tossing hand is going through. His hands are rotating backwards together. Look how he is releasing the ball from ninety degrees instead of Federer's more direct in front approach.

[stroke]

Thanks for posting all this. It's about time we took a good look at this serve and put it through the grinder. For some time posters have recognised Murray's serve is not as good as it could be.

I have studying his serve quite a bit recently.

I just don't like the way he oscillates. He has a motion that kind of oscillates and I don't think is as good as it might be because of it. I think he would be better taking the weight more directly back then forward again. I also think the ball toss is too much to the right and the left arm flails wildly out of the back after contact as a way of counter balancing that problem. As others have noticed, I don't think he gets the racket in a position where he can execute internal rotation to the degree he might. He needs to centralise his ball toss more.

I wonder if his grip the heel of the hand, is erring slightly toward bevel 2, which must inhibit his internal arm rotation also

Lc, I think you are right. To me, Murray is definitely not in the same strong continental 2/1 grip(as John descibed it in his articles on the Fed serve) as Federer. I do think this is a real issue in not getting ESR and ISR racquet head action he could.

[klacr]

during the final...

Federer vs. Djokovic

Djokovic not doing anything flashy. Just steady. Shrinking the court. Making Federer second guess his shots. Takes first set 6-3

Federer with wild backhand mishits. Lack of confidence and execution on game plan. returns are indecisive. Federer hitting a few short balls to draw Djokovic up, Djokovic not biting. Fed may be wise to se some drop shots and force Novak out of comfort zone.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

The eighth game of the second set is the best i have ever seen. The first three points by Novak were incredible, match by Roger then winning the next five points...amazing.

The ninth game by Djokovic topped even the eight game....

[stotty]

Amazing last three games from Djokovic...just piled the pressure on.

An incredible five consecutive points in that eight game by Roger. i will remember that forever...

[klacr]

Clinical

Djokovic just pressures Federer so much.

Not the spectacle we were all hoping for. Djokovic is so good he just sucks the life out of his opponents and the match and the viewers.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

It's How You Play the Game...

Djokovic just pressures Federer so much.

Not the spectacle we were all hoping for. Djokovic is so good he just sucks the life out of his opponents and the match and the viewers.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Yeah…interestingly enough he did it without going to the net one single time that I remember. Maybe he did…but basically he did it from the backcourt.

He sucks the life out of the game as well. Of course it is not his fault and he is a fabulous athlete. But there is something fundamentally wrong with the game.

Peter Fleming was touching a bit on Federer and questioning why he wasn't using the attacking tactics more often. He observed that perhaps Federer doesn't realize himself how uncomfortable he is making his opponents when he does attack.

It looks to me that the Federer approach game has some fundamental work to be done also. Without using underspin he is hitting right into his opponents strength.

Whenever he uses his slice to the Djokovic backhand it really seems to neutralize things. He should use a drive slice down the line after he has moved Djokovic short and wide on his backhand. Instead he just starts to drive the ball right back at Djokovic.

Too bad he won't be around for long…at least not at this level for much longer. I don't see that he can sustain it against the younger legs of Novak. Amazing though he seems to be that much higher than the rest of the field though. There is Novak Djokovic…then there is Roger Federer. In that order.

[don_budge]

Absurd...

These match "stats" do not include net play. This game has crossed the line into the world of the absurd. More of tennis metaphoring life.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/tournaments/barclays-atp-world-tour-finals/605/2015/match-stats/F324/D643/live/MS001/match-stats

[klacr]

These match "stats" do not include net play. This game has crossed the line into the world of the absurd. More of tennis metaphoring life.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/tourn...01/match-stats

What net play? Wasn't a whole lot of net play to be proud of it during the match.

Credit to Roger for attempting at times. Not nearly as often or with the best results. Sad when we have to give a tip of my cap to someone that just tries it.

But if you want to beat Novak, you can't play his game. He's the best in the world for a reason. Djokovic has lost 6 times in 2015. 4 out of the 6 matches were lost to players who predominantly attacked/served and volleyed. Karlovic (1 time) + Federer (3 times) The other two (Murray + Wawrinka) had to play more aggressive than their normal comfort level and finish points at net.

If everyone plays the same, it's easy for one player to dominate simply because they have the best of that narrow skill set. It takes someone with a new game, a new style, a skill that is superior and different that what is the norm.
Start teaching your kids how to volley. And a serve would help as well.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

When I have watched the highlights of matches where Federer has beaten Djokovic, he played him differently to how he played him in yesterday's final. Tactically Roger was unlikely to win playing as did last night. Indeed it would need Djokovic to be off form for Roger to have beaten him. The court at the O2 is really slow. Many coaches I know, with good judgement about these things, said it was the slowest court they had witnessed at the O2. You cannot come to the net on a court that slow, you simply can't.

I am in favour of changing the courts used for the tour finals on a yearly basis. Yes, why not clay? Why not grass? Acrylic courts are soulless and don't favour artistry in any way, shape or form. A drop shot has to be perfect to be viable, as do short angled balls or any kind of touch play.

[johnyandell]

Guys thanks for all the thoughts on Andy's motion.

DB--wanna try summarizing to a few bullet points??

[Deweyfaisk]

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[klacr]

If you have a desire to learn how to earn from $ 500 per day and work only for yourself, then write to us at email: admin@makemoneyonline.universalxyzdom.xyz

Seriously?! Please don't tell me this forum is going to be infiltrated by this spam.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

Seriously?! Please don't tell me this forum is going to be infiltrated by this spam.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Yes, well I have had two similar to this in my message box. So annoying. Someone ought to lock these people up - without a computer - and chuck away the key.