How the Tennis Gods Move: Balance

[10splayer]

I think the only thing you know about tennis is what you find on youtube.

No goalie moves in the fashion he is teaching, and I know a few things about developing goaltender movement. None. Never. Ever. Goaltending is all about positioning in an arc, intersection angles, elliptical motion and forcing your opponents to sell out first. If you think left to right, you will get killed, as its all about control of depth, and moving in the correct path to block, stop and hold. You don't do that in tennis. The footwork is entirely different as well, I might add. I have trained goalie footwork. Its complex, no, I mean HIGH complex. Only 22 guys in the world can play that position in hockey, and soccer guys, well, those guys have a lot of courage and tremendous IQ's for the game.

Yikes, so stupid, but, its youtube. The shit for brains stuff posted these days that people are trying to pass for instruction is just sad.

And furthermore the guy is just pitiful when he shows his movement example.

Is it so tough to ask him to go to the gym, develop his legs and show how it is done properly? What a slack-ass effort. He is skipping, hoping, moving like a bunny and he goes right, left, right, instead of left, right, left, and this will always put his rhythm off balance. And, god, he brings his feet together, cardinal sin, and I tell you what, I hate that skip. And, he cannot split step either to save his life, and his hip is curled into the wrong slot. So bad. And, guys wonder why tennis is such a tough game to play. Everything you don't want to see, he did.

Awful.

How in the hell are these guys even allowed on the court to teach kids when they clearly haven't been certified, or trained? I like these guys trying to teach centre of mass when they cannot even move themselves.

I like my daughters mama, some expert coach was talking about movement and she said, lets go run lateral, elliptical, sprint and movement drills. They would not do it, and its because she is 6'3, zero fat to her and is a world class sprint coach who really knows how to control her centre of mass better than any of them as that is what she does for a living.

Lots of yapping, and not much in terms of performance and end results.

Talk, talk and talk, and no action.

Last post. Promise. This is so sad.

Thank god, you only teach 2 kids. As usual you have no idea how tennis players move...Bye bye.

[gzhpcu]

Bye, bye? Wouldn't place any bet on it...

[10splayer]

Bye, bye? Wouldn't place any bet on it...

It's true. He is no man of his word.

[stotty]

Shuffling....

No goalie moves in the fashion he is teaching, and I know a few things about developing goaltender movement. .

Well you watched the video right through to the goalie bit, so you have to admit you were curious, hockeyscout.

I like the video. The take home point for me is it's about getting to a ball in given situation in the most efficient way. That Federer never wastes a step. I am not sure shuffle steps are fast enough once a player has to cover an expanse, but, yes, to cover half a court (maybe slightly less) they work well. You get there efficiently and balanced.

But there are so many footwork patterns/steps for different situations. The video just highlights one of them. Federer has all the patterns and steps.

I think we may have gone off track with Dan's thread because it was initially a two-handed comparison between Djokovic/Harrison. I think there may be more moves available to a one-hander than a two-hander.

If you want to watch perfect movement in the women's game then wind back the clock to Steffi Graf. Her footwork was pretty perfect as I remember.

[johnyandell]

Just a comment on Fed.

I just watched over 20 Fed running backhands and saw two, neither where he was going far that had shuffles.

This is typical:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Backhand/RF_BH_Running&stroke=RF%20BH%20Running%20Front1%20250fps.mp4

I like Jeff but he is way way off on this one. Just because he says he saw the film doesn't mean he saw what was happening and maybe he didn't watch enough of it.

[hockeyscout]

It's true. He is no man of his word.

Hey, look, I got no problem here returning just to shut you down.

You'd never say I was not a man of my word to my face. Trust me on that one. You are a coward. That's what is bad about the internet - you get guys like 10-splayer who get tough and insulting behind their keyboards.

Anyways, 10s-player, your not going to bully me (and I am sure you've pulled this game with others in your career). Go back to school and get certification so you are not spreading the youtube myths.

Listen to guys like John Yandell who know what they are talking about if your not willing to listen to coaches from other sports who actually carry certification you don't have, or want to work to get.

The bottom line really is I should not have in the first place engaged a career coaching tennis bum in a complex conversation about footwork in the first place. Referring users to that video showed his true lack of knowledge on all-around functional movement base.

I tried to help you by asking you five basic questions to determine your level of understanding in movement based science once, and when you didn't know the answers you tried to run me off the board. The reality is you just didn't know and we're to proud to admit it.

The second thing that is bad about the internet - youtube.

Dumb-ass stuff, and these guys never get called out for it either.

That video link, as John pointed out, its insane.

The way that dude moves - lets just say he ain't got the moves like Jagger.

And his reference to goalies, funny.

And, I know a few things about goalies.

Yes, Slotty, I did watch that video the whole way through because it was entertaining like a Russian car crash compilation. The inner hockey player in me was watching it, dreaming I still played and could knock a bad mover like that flat on his ass. A good tennis player would catch that guy off balance all day, a boxer would have a field day, a NBA player would posterise that pour soul a NFL player would make him retarded for the rest of his life and flatten him like a pancake.

John is being political - nice, and I don't have to be. I could care less. It really ticks me off how guys like you "coach fundamentals", charge kids money and post erratically 1000 videos all over youtube that have no scientific base or research behind it.

You have to feel bad for a guy like John Yandell who spends a ton of money, time, effort, video and all the rest putting a quality product out. And, he's forced to compete with that garbage? And, have it referenced on his site. Wow.

Even dumb ass hockey coaches who know nothing about tennis instantly see what John Yandell see's.

Pretty tough to make split second adjustments, elliptically get behind that ball properly, run the right - correct route to the ball, disguise your intentions and a ton of other things.

Might work a couple of times for a kid like my older daughter who is strong enough to pull that play off, however, that is a potential disaster waiting to happen.

it would be an easy read anyways, if you did it consistently he'd be dead meat, and give away a lot of points.

Scary.

Back to YOU-TUBE. And, these guys inundate the marketplace, YOU-TUBE WARRIORS, I call them. They are like spammers from Nigeria. What they do doesn't work, and it gives the guys in the business who are doing solid work a bad reputation. Absolutely no value.

I saw another video referenced where a guy was trying to solve pancaking on the serve, and that one was real scary to watch. Do what he wants enough, and you will get a severe case of tennis elbow.

PS: Graf was trained in the German Olympic sprinting system, which I might add is world class. Her father had the vision to teach her how to move properly from day one, and did a ton of work with her on her movement. It paid off.

PPS: Quit being a dick 10-splayer. Hope this is my last post, but I will reply if num-nuts mister top 1500 wants to go and extra round of two. He's like that annoying Jehovah's Witness pounding on my door, who just won't go away.

[johnyandell]

Look guys you can disagree without calling each other names. No more please.

[10splayer]

Fair enough, I'm out. This is getting comical.

[gzhpcu]

Still, all I asked is for confirmation by your posting some match situation videos, hockeyscout. Why don't you? It would strengthen your position.

Look, here is an 8 year old boy. Post something like this of your daughter. At least a couple of minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj25WLum10U

[stotty]

Still, all I asked is for confirmation by your posting some match situation videos, hockeyscout. Why don't you? It would strengthen your position.

Look, here is an 8 year old boy. Post something like this of your daughter. At least a couple of minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj25WLum10U

I have always been happy to post my students. Some coaches like to do this kind of thing and some don't I guess. It's really up to the coach and I don't like to pressurise that other coaches do the same. That said, as you say, hockeyscout could seriously strengthen his case by producing a similar video to yours showcasing his three students. We could then see what he is working on in terms of footwork and athleticism.

Not too many boys can play as well as your boy aged eight. He's good, isn't he? I have a similar boy who is just turned nine. His strokes aren't as refined as your kid but he's better athletically. Across the globe there are hundreds of such kids. It's a tough game. A handful make it...the rest flounder.

Thanks for posting, Phil. It's a lovely clip to study.

[johnyandell]

Having read through this all again, my conclusion is the same as before I started--there isn't a great consensus on movement and since every ball is different it's great to thrash the issue through with discussion. Disagreement can be productive. No one knows it all. Respect and articulation please.

[don_budge]

Kids…gotta love 'em!

Look, here is an 8 year old boy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj25WLum10U

He's rather advanced for his age…to say the least. Take a look at this kid…I like him even better. The video shows the whole gamut of his game…throwing in some slice backhands to boot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KamnyQC4jik

Here he is a couple of years later…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxHEDQDo9Xk

He's what you call a work in progress. A comment below his video however is less flattering…

"This kid is the biggest cheater in 12s tennis. Everyone in the USTA texas knows it. Good strokes but teach him some character dad!"

[stotty]

I am not sure I don't prefer the kid Phil posted. I like his calmness, his composure. Tennis is as much about a player's innate qualities as it is his strokes I've come to believe.

The thing is there are many such kids of this standard in the region where I live. You would need a crystal ball to know who might develop into a world-class player. It's a process. At aged 18 and 19 no one predicted Murray or Henman would cut the mustard over here. That's how far down the line you can get and still no one believes in you enough to fund you.

That's rotten comment someone made about that kid Nico. Despite their mature games these kids are still so young, aren't they?

[stotty]

I just read the article again and have to say I find it awfully good. The comparison between Djokovic and Harrison certainly made for some interesting discussion in the the thread.

I bought Dan's book some time back while surfing Amazon. It's good book. I learned much from it. I think this "vertical stacking" is an excellent take home point.

[don_budge]

What's not to like…in a child?

I am not sure I don't prefer the kid Phil posted. I like his calmness, his composure. Tennis is as much about a player's innate qualities as it is his strokes I've come to believe.

The thing is there are many such kids of this standard in the region where I live. You would need a crystal ball to know who might develop into a world-class player. It's a process. At aged 18 and 19 no one predicted Murray or Henman would cut the mustard over here. That's how far down the line you can get and still no one believes in you enough to fund you.

That's rotten comment someone made about that kid Nico. Despite their mature games these kids are still so young, aren't they?

Well that's the point isn't it? They are kids. Some of their form and technique looks like they are cannot miss candidates for future hall of famers or at least future top tenners. But so much can happen between the years of 6 and adulthood…and this is the real point…start to take notice when these kids are 14 or 15 and starting to nip at the heels of professionals in the lower ranks. This is when you can start to separate the pretenders and the contenders.

Which brings us to an interesting question and one that hockeyscout has been beating the drum about. While he has been questioning the worthiness of just about every tennis coach on this site…well not only questioning their worthiness as well as their morality in some cases…in my case…he has not really shown us anything that could amount to any genuine proof that he himself knows what he is doing in the case of his "three world class juniors".

After watching some of these youtube videos of these young phenoms all we have to compare them to is a very poor quality video of his daughter hitting two forehands. To tell the truth the most impressive thing about those two swings was the amount of noise that the youngster emitted. The first thing that I would advise as a coach would be to keep it down on the screaming. In most tennis clubs in the world there are other people playing on the court next to you and it would be crazy to expect them to have to listen to that wailing while they are trying to concentrate on their own games. The first lesson would be one of tennis etiquette and respect.

So then we are left with the image of two rather inconclusive forehands that she is taking a rather wild swing at. This is what I suppose is the birthing of "Armageddon Tennis". Ok…good luck.

But that being said one must remember that she is only nine years old. She is just a kid. As far as I can see her tennis acumen is not at the same level or standard of the videos that we have seen. But we must keep in mind that the same rule applies to her…at 14 or 15 it will be more critical to assess her stature in relationship to other juniors her age or even older if she is to be a world class junior.

The positive that I can see from what we have heard, read and seen is this. Apparently hockeyscout is focusing much on her athleticism and developing her in at least one other sport…martial arts apparently. In this way you cannot go wrong. I don't believe that it is critical to have a finished looking product at 8, 9, 10 or even 14 years old. I think that at or around 14 one should begin to see some real promise if one expects to make it to the top echelon of the world. But if you spend a lot of time and effort developing hard core fundamental athletic skills in a child in those formative years it will be a good investment in the future of their tennis.

A lot of these wonder children don't turn out to be such great athletes after all even though they look very polished in their strokes. There is much more to playing this game than having a game that looks manicured and polished. There is a lot of grit and fight in it as well. But the thing is…it must be fundamentally sound.

I don't know who is in charge of the tennis development of hockeyscout's child now but sooner or later it is going to have to be some knowledgeable tennis person. This game is so much deeper than just bashing the ball about and I am afraid that is what Armageddon tennis sounds like. Trying to rely on blazing speed and laser placement is not going to cut it…it doesn't cut it now and it hasn't cut it in the past and it isn't going to cut it in the foreseeable future.

The game is not just a matter of going on the attack. People are in the end human beings. No human beings can come with their A-game 100% of the time. There must be something beneath that veneer that one can rely on when the best that they have isn't there…particularly in the developmental stages. They must learn rule number one…keep the ball in play. Otherwise they will spend many years having their asses handed to them by players that understand the game of defense. Afterall…what wins championships in the NFL, NBA, MLB and perhaps even NHL? Defense is what wins…cannot the same be said in tennis these days? In reality it should be a combination of both offense and defense…it must somehow be a balance of these two aspects of the game.

So as with any other 8 or 9 year old the jury is still out. But one must keep in mind how the parent represents the child and as 10splayer once casually remarked to the effect of the child having to pay for or cash the checks that were written out by the parent…or something to that effect. I wish the child of hockeyscout all of the luck in the world and my first lesson for her would be to show respect to those that are playing on the court next to her…it isn't polite to disturb others when they are trying to concentrate on their own games. The screaming leaves a real negative impression to me…it appears that someone is trying to dramatize their own efforts while at the same time trivialising the efforts of those around them. I personally witnessed this sort of thing at the French Open last year watching Maria Sharapova when she was screaming like a banshee against Muguruza. Trust me…it is quite nauseating. A Russian lady next to me with a young tennis playing junior child was appalled as well. The second lesson would begin with my lecture on power that is initiated by the rhetorical question…What is power? The answer…control. The main elements of control being speed, spin and placement.

Just a couple of thoughts…tennis-wise speaking of course.