Peter Chen Serve

[don_budge]

Turn the Shoulders…in the Platform Stance

Once you get those shoulders lined up like Roger is in frame #48 you are going to take a quantum leap provided you get that backswing to flow yourself into position to do so. Turning the shoulders is a huge key to power in every sense of the word. Control being power. Control made up of the elements of speed, placement and spin. Not necessarily in that order either. Different combinations…like the service tactics of Federer.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide2.mov

That right leg interrupts the rhythm of the serve...splits it in two.

That's right Stotty…that's exactly what I meant. I would insert an acupuncture needle in right at that point in the motion…remember my reference to chai? Svingas interruptus. Keep turning the shoulders.

In golf…if a golfer wants to hit the ball further he doesn't swing harder. At least a good experienced golfer doesn't. When looking for extra yardage the good fundamentally sound golfer merely turns his shoulders more.

[bottle]

Yah, give Him His due with a capital S, especially at the beginning of a new sentence (or phrase).

[nickw]

I'm rather blown away by Nick Wheatley's advice in one of his videos to move the elbow backward after having adduced it forward-- as part of the UAR (upper arm rotation) combined with triceptic extension.

That advice, while remaining a little different, seems to align with the advice of other video perpetrators to form a vertical wheel from key position of racket head by side of trunk.

You can't see the stuff that happens in a sixth of a second, Nick tells us, so you have to figure it out.

Confirmation of my theory, I'd say, that there is not only paralysis by analysis in tennis but paralysis by not enough analysis.

I also like it that Nick is so definite that triceptic extension, i.e., muscular extension of the arm is essential part of the UAR and arm extension mix.

Some tennis preceptors think that the arm extension is passive, that there have been experiments where satanic doctors have anesthetized the triceps with no discernible difference.

I have heard these strongly worded and conflicting arguments for so long that I am grateful for anyone laying out a firm position whether he is on wrong or right side of the subject.

It gives me courage to try the opposite method once again.

Thanks for sharing your views bottle, all greatly valued.

Definitely a big believer in the role of tricep extension, I feel the energy chain is badly broken without it.

I moved the elbow a bit too much in the vid, as I tried to highlight what I call the 'slingshot' effect that comes from the change of rotation direction of the shoulder, and perhaps the elbow coming back is more a natural consequence of the slingshot. The vid link is here for reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElJzpRKWSfQ

I don't touch at all upon the role and timing of leg drive, but will be looking at that in depth for the serve 1-2 rhythm article.

And talking of rhythm (whilst also getting back to Peter's serve), I totally agree with the views on how the step is breaking up the serve's rhythm. Also, that the start of the motion could be smoother, and this would help overall rhythm and timing. Once the racket arm and tossing arm separate, a more continuous flowing movement from both would help. Having said that, the little stutters seem improved from the first videos of Peter's serve

[bottle]

Thank you so much.

[pvchen]

Fed leg action

nickw, I liked your video on the grip, especially your demonstration of the shadow stroke of the upward swing.

Don Budge, your analysis of Fed's backswing is awesome! I've copied the text to a Word doc and made snapshots of your referenced check points for myself, but this really should be it's own tennis player.net article, IMO.

I wonder if you could expand on your analysis of Fed's leg action (nickw, I look forward to your article, if you're addressing this).

1) When do you think the legs should bend?

I think your observation that Fed's legs are straight on the backswing is really important. This is an adjustment I've been working on. When I analyze my motion, I realize that I have a tendency to toss with my legs bent. This leads to a 'double pump' where I actually extend my legs for the toss, then bend again to hit the ball, which has caused problems with balance and necessitates a step with the back leg or I would fall over. (I wonder if this double pump has something to do with why some pros, like Wawrinka, need to take a step.)

My latest adjustment is to try to keep the legs straight, then bend the front leg when the tossing arm goes up so that the heel comes up (interestingly, 'long haired' Fed in your clip raises his toe, but 'short haired' Fed as seen in your second clip seems to raise his heel and bend the front leg more on the toss--progress, or did he lose something?). I try to keep my hitting arm relaxed with the racquet pointing down, and then flip the racquet up (I guess this is internal to external shoulder rotation) while bending the back leg.

I think this is what Fed does, and feels like it helps with the momentum of the stroke, and helps me to extend my legs earlier, closer to the top of the arc of the racquet in trophy pose (like in the Rick Macci video you had referenced), instead of after it falls, as I have tended towards. Am I on the right track?

[tennis_chiro]

Don't toss with your knees

nickw, I liked your video on the grip, especially your demonstration of the shadow stroke of the upward swing.

Don Budge, your analysis of Fed's backswing is awesome! I've copied the text to a Word doc and made snapshots of your referenced check points for myself, but this really should be it's own tennis player.net article, IMO.

I wonder if you could expand on your analysis of Fed's leg action (nickw, I look forward to your article, if you're addressing this).

1) When do you think the legs should bend?

I think your observation that Fed's legs are straight on the backswing is really important. This is an adjustment I've been working on. When I analyze my motion, I realize that I have a tendency to toss with my legs bent. This leads to a 'double pump' where I actually extend my legs for the toss, then bend again to hit the ball, which has caused problems with balance and necessitates a step with the back leg or I would fall over. (I wonder if this double pump has something to do with why some pros, like Wawrinka, need to take a step.)

My latest adjustment is to try to keep the legs straight, then bend the front leg when the tossing arm goes up so that the heel comes up (interestingly, 'long haired' Fed in your clip raises his toe, but 'short haired' Fed as seen in your second clip seems to raise his heel and bend the front leg more on the toss--progress, or did he lose something?). I try to keep my hitting arm relaxed with the racquet pointing down, and then flip the racquet up (I guess this is internal to external shoulder rotation) while bending the back leg.

I think this is what Fed does, and feels like it helps with the momentum of the stroke, and helps me to extend my legs earlier, closer to the top of the arc of the racquet in trophy pose (like in the Rick Macci video you had referenced), instead of after it falls, as I have tended towards. Am I on the right track?

Take a good look at Federer and Sampras. You'll see the left knee bend, which is the main driving force of the leg thrust, doesn't actually begin until the ball has left the tossing hand. It's a variable to the consistency of the toss that you don't want to add.

don

[don_budge]

The Magic is in the Motion...you are absolutely on the right track

Am I on the right track?

Does it feel like your racquet head is on a track…a roller coaster track?

Watch this video…does it look as if Roger's racquet head is on a roller coaster track? Does it feel as if his motion is roller coasting along? The head of the racquet seems to hesitate just a tad before going over the hill…and then…swoosh! Into and out of the loop behind him. In the wink of a young girl's eye.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide2.mov

Originally written for gzhpcu…just out of the goodness of my heart.

Roller Coaster of Love...remember that tune?

The service motion is a bit complex and it involves quite a bit of motion from all of the different parts of the body...so we try to simplify things by creating a model we can relate it to in simple terms. The model that I use is the “berg och dallbana” which translates literally into English from Swedish as the “mountain and valley course”...but it means “roller coaster”.

A roller coaster is an amusement park ride that is perfectly designed using the law of gravity. The design is so perfect that the ride feels that it is wildly out of control and traveling at incredible speed...but is so amazingly in control that the owners of such rides are betting everything they have that the ride will not spin out of control and kill a bunch of innocent people on a Saturday afternoon. This is the safe and secure principle we shall attempt to modify your backswing to in order to get you going forward into the “hit” with perfect and effortless energy. We are going to be using gravity as our main source of energy...to create a perfect, yet simple motion...a roller coaster of a serve.

Here’s the thing...about the set up and backswing. This is a real challenge without having you in front of me to study for a while. To set you up to begin your motion I would like you to create a line directly at your target with the toes of your two feet which are approximately shoulder width apart. Imagine this line going forwards towards your target and all the way back of you to the fence. This line will serve as our “track” for the backswing. I would like to see you bent slightly at the waist so that your arm can “swing” from your shoulder without your body getting in the way.

Finally, I would like you to line your racquet up to your target as well, parallel to the same line as the line that your feet created. Point your racquet at the target and hold it about waist high supported by your left hand. Weight distributed from between 60/40 to 70/30 from the front foot to the back. Great...now we have you lined up, and taking aim.

Here we go...hold on to your hat! One thing that we must clarify before we go into any kind of explanation about the motion is the pressure of your grip. Sam Snead referred to the grip on his golf club as holding it with only so much pressure as you would hold a live bird. We only hold on with our hand tight enough to not let go of the racquet. We maintain only enough pressure in the entire arm, forearm and wrist to swing the arm and racquet back into position in one piece without disturbing the exact position that it is in at the setup position.

We must eliminate all sources of tension and resistance when we are attempting to use pure gravity to dictate our motion. From this relaxed and confident position at setup we need only to release the racquet with our left hand that is supporting it, and allow the weight of the racquet head to merely fall upon the line of the track all the way back to the fence until it reaches a position at the top of the hill.

From the starting position, the roller coaster car begins its decent down the first hill until it reaches the bottom where it will begin its assent slowly up the second hill all the way to the top. Remember the track is in front of the line that we created with our feet towards our target and it extends all the way back. Keep the racquet on this track. By allowing gravity to dictate the direction and speed of our backswing we will create the position back in our swing where the laws of gravity make the most sense and the least number of things can go wrong. In fact nothing can go wrong...just like the roller coaster.

By dropping the racquet head and allowing the weight of it to travel smoothly in front of you and only using the energy of your weight transferring to the back foot by slowly turning your shoulders and allowing your arm to freely swing back into position, we create a position where the racquet will naturally drop behind us at free fall speed into what you are referring to the “pro drop” position.

Now this is where things get a bit interesting...and exciting. Thinking about this point of the motion where the racquet makes a loop starting at free fall speed, behind our backs and how it relates to a roller coaster, we can imagine where the cars of the ride go into a loop and the riders are actually upside down on the track with only gravity to keep them glued to the track.

This is where the riders of the roller coaster are screaming at the top of their lungs and their faces are contorted with the g-force that is plastering the tissue of their faces to their skulls. It’s in the loop, baby! This is where the drive of the legs, the turning back of the shoulders and the thrusting or throwing motion of the racquet combine to exponentially create an incredible amount of speed with very little effort. You can imagine that the line a piece of pencil would draw if it was attached to the tip of the racquet...this is your track for the roller coaster of your serve.

A description of the Pancho Gonzales serve…(could be descriptive of Federer)

The Gonzales service is a natural action that epitomizes grace, power, control and placement. The top players sigh when they see the smooth, easy action. There is no trace of a hitch and no unnecessary movements. I have never seen a serve so beautifully executed. The toss is no higher than it has to be and it is timed so that he is fully stretched when he hits it. The backswing is continuous and the motion of the backswing blends into the hit and continues into the follow-through without a pause..

I am a huge admirer of the Gonzales serve...and he obviously knew his "metaphysics".

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide2.mov

yep pvchen…I believe that you are very much on the right track. It's all about feel in the end. How does it feel? Better? Probably. Perfect? No…there is still work to do. Iron out the friction. Grease the wheels. The magic is in the motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc4dpfCWGuo

[don_budge]

The Forward Swing…Federer vs. Murray comparison

Don Budge, your analysis of Fed's backswing is awesome! I've copied the text to a Word doc and made snapshots of your referenced check points for myself, but this really should be it's own tennis player.net article, IMO.

I wonder if you could expand on your analysis of Fed's leg action (nickw, I look forward to your article, if you're addressing this).

1) When do you think the legs should bend?

The Forward Swing…Federer vs. Murray coming soon. I'm getting my ducks in a row. Thanks for asking…pvchen. I wouldn't mind seeing that document that you made…care to post it?

[gzhpcu]

Originally written for gzhpcu…just out of the goodness of my heart.
[/url]

No praise beats self-praise...

[pvchen]

Don Budge Federer Backswing Analysis

Here is a document with Don Budge's post from the Barclays 2015 thread on Federer's backswing, and with screen shots of the referenced positions (Don, please check and see if I have the correct frames):

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=A06F167B06ECA45E!12054&authkey=!AJMOfAELR7o7nE8&ithint=file%2cdocx

Here is a document I made looking at some of the same checkpoints with 'short haired Fed' (from the high speed archives) vs. 'long haired Fed.'

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=A06F167B06ECA45E!12053&authkey=!AAZC_4tAGoPEd8U&ithint=file%2cdocx

It's interesting to me to see how his motion and timing has changed over the years. I wonder which motion people think is better?

[nickw]

Here is a document I made looking at some of the same checkpoints with 'short haired Fed' (from the high speed archives) vs. 'long haired Fed.'

https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=A06F167B06ECA45E!12053&authkey=!AAZC_4tAGoPEd8U&ithint=file%2cdocx

It's interesting to me to see how his motion and timing has changed over the years. I wonder which motion people think is better?

Were these both 1st serves Peter? Very interesting to see the change, long-haired Fed seems to have shuffled his front foot back in the last frame! I much prefer the look of short-haired Fed's serve, and would expect the evolution of his serve to only have become more efficient and rhythmic over the years.

[pvchen]

Both are 1st serves, according to the labels.

Short haired (blue shirt) Fed is from here:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Deuce_Side1_250fps.mp4

This is the long haired Fed link:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide2.mov

Maybe John Yandell knows when these were shot?

[stotty]

Both are 1st serves, according to the labels.

Short haired (blue shirt) Fed is from here:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Deuce_Side1_250fps.mp4

This is the long haired Fed link:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide2.mov

Maybe John Yandell knows when these were shot?

Interesting. The serves are a little different. The young Federer has his front foot more parallel to the baseline around the trophy position than the older Federer. The kick-back on the younger Federer is also more straight back behind him than the older Federer.

I find the older Federer slightly smoother.

I wonder if the younger Federer was hitting down the centre service line and the older Federer was serving out wide. That may explain something.

Serves don't always repeat. I have been studying Jerzy Janowicz who uses a lateral pinpoint stance. His right foot frequently lands in different places as he slides it up to the baseline. I guess even the very best servers have to make micro adjustments here and there for ball tosses that are a centimetre or so out of line.

[don_budge]

I Prefer the Long Haired Version…Younger and Snappier (Serve and Volley Edition)

Short haired (blue shirt) Fed is from here:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Deuce_Side1_250fps.mp4

This is the long haired Fed link:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide2.mov

Obviously the long hair version is a younger version. It is perfect in its youth. Like the beauty of a young woman…so beautiful it almost hurts to look at. His whole body takes on the physics of a cracking whip so effortlessly. This was also the version of his serve that he was using in 2001 when he played Pete Sampras in the quarterfinals of Wimbledon and defeated him in five sets with predominately serve and volley tactics. This is the serve and volley edition…even though he is not serving and volleying on this particular point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrDW4MF_xMI

There isn't nearly the jumping aspect in this version and the so called "kickback" is sort of reduced. Stotty has referred to it as a braking mechanism in the past. It almost looks as if he is adhering to the old serving rules. It's a classic look. You don't see this rendition anymore.

The older version is still a wonderful motion. Like a fine wine it has mellowed a bit. Maybe a wrinkle or two. The deeper knee bend is an indication of his trying to squeeze blood out of a stone. Not quite so effortless looking as the younger version. This motion has been sitting predominately on the baseline for a number of years..gathering a bit of dust. He has definitely retooled with the new racquet and once again we see flashes of brilliance.

But look how he applies the brakes on the forward motion to the net…

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Ad_Front1_250fps.mp4

Whereas here he is taking that uninhibited step into the court with his right foot…the step that I emphasize in my teaching.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide2.mov

The young Federer was so explosive at finishing matches…he would just run the table going away. His serve had loads to do with it. Now it is the forehand that is carrying the load…not that the serve is not a huge weapon as well. He plays "serve and forehand" more than he plays serve and volley. He still serves out a match as well as anyone in the game.

[don_budge]

The Slow Deliberate Start of the Motion...

Here is something that is most fascinating. It occurs in the first 17 clicks of the video…

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/rogerfederer/rogerfederer_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve/rogerfederer_1st_serve.html?Federer1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide2.mov

In the first row directly in line with Federer there is an older fellow with a safari hat on and he is lowering his newspaper into his satchel. In the second row there is a woman who is adjusting her sunglasses or something then she is lowering her hand from her face into her lap.

Both of their downward movements are in perfect synch with Federer initiating his motion. When they deliberately and naturally drop their hands at the exact same speed that Federer commences his service motion out of his setup position.