The Myth of the Archer's Bow

[johnyandell]

Would love to discuss "The Myth of the Archer's Bow"

[lobndropshot]

Thanks! This is a myth that I fear won't go down without a fight.

[GeoffWilliams]

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...DeuceSide4.mov Talk to Henman about it.

[stotty]

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...DeuceSide4.mov Talk to Henman about it.

Well he certainly leads with the hip...but the tossing arm stops short of going over the head.

[GeoffWilliams]

Sampras also has the bow and the reverse bow, as his back stays arched after leg drive. STicks his left hip out and Raonic learned it from him.

Here is an isner bow: https://www.google.com/search?q=isne...U6_gnFXA8SM%3A

[johnyandell]

Good shot of Isner and it shows my points well. First the arm is not point of the alleged bow and there is no bend back at the waist.

As for Pete:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_serve_leg_action/ps_serve_leg_action.html?PS2ndSDeuceLegActionSide.mov

He doesn't independently stick is hip out. The waist and hips are in line and the bend is at the knees.

[GeoffWilliams]

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSDeuceCourtLevelFront2.mov

This shot shows his hip is out, and there is an angle, and he exchanges hip over hip, upon contact/follow through, so it's not just shoulder over shoulder, it's hip over hip exchanging.

[johnyandell]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. To me this just clearly shows the hip position as a function of the knee bend. But that is a great clip! Hadn't looked at in a while.

[stotty]

Archer's bow is very much an American thing and not a widely used term over here. I have certainly never paid much attention to it. Besides, making students aware of such mechanics often just creates havoc anyway.

It's interesting, though, how viewing clips from various angles can be misleading. This is where biomechanics gets tricky. It's easy to see independent movement of the waist if you are not trained enough in looking back in the chain to see what's really making the waist move like that. I think this is where I have sometimes screwed up as a coach...understanding what's causing what in the chain. It's not always easy to spot things, especially on the serve.

I am coming to the conclusion that some coaches have a better "biomechanical eye" than others, and this is what separates average coaches from better coaches...at least when it comes to technique.

[klacr]

Archer's bow is very much an American thing and not a widely used term over here. I have certainly never paid much attention to it. Besides, making students aware of such mechanics often just creates havoc anyway.

It's interesting, though, how viewing clips from various angles can be misleading. This is where biomechanics gets tricky. It's easy to see independent movement of the waist if you are not trained enough in looking back in the chain to see what's really making the waist move like that. I think this is where I have sometimes screwed up as a coach...understanding what's causing what in the chain. It's not always easy to spot things, especially on the serve.

I am coming to the conclusion that some coaches have a better "biomechanical eye" than others, and this is what separates average coaches from better coaches...at least when it comes to technique.

The "cause" happens right before the symptom.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Lugano, Switzerland

[GeoffWilliams]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. To me this just clearly shows the hip position as a function of the knee bend. But that is a great clip! Hadn't looked at in a while.

We are just going to have to agree that you are wrong!

The angle is not very large, but it's there. Same with Raonic. This over head shot particularly shows how the bow backwards, and angling the front hip out and above the rear hip, same as sampras, whom he learned it from allows Raonic to dominate the world on his serve games. It's only possible with the platform stance, to gain an angle. Saying there is no bow, and no hip angle, is ignoring the video evidence. https://www.google.com/search?q=raon...LOrvQL7yIBM%3A When I do it, I notice a big difference, in pace, but it's not natural for me, and I suspect for anyone else. Part of the reason a platform stance is better than a pinpoint. It allows for the rear leg to drop lower, forcing the angle of the front hip, to rise higher than the rear hip. Given a large bow! Sampras, fed, joker, all have the platform stance. But Sampras and Raonic are the best at jutting the hip out over the base line, higher.

Pinpoints allow for far less front/rear hip angle, but more force upwards from a more direct spot. Platform stances seem to allow more accuracy: compare Roddick/monfils with fed/sampras. But just because the hips don't angle, doesn't mean there is no archer's bow! The bow allows for a deeper frame drop and that's one of the main difference between recreational players and pros, frame drop depth is greater, bow is greater. Or you could agree to ignore the evidence.

[johnyandell]

Geoff It is coming from the knee bend. Once you consciously skew that line you are going to lose energy, efficiency, racket speed.

[GeoffWilliams]

I'm pretty sure it comes from the big toe! Or maybe from the ear lobe or arm pit. Sampras and Raonic would disagree with that assessment. They are the servers who stick the leading hip out who get the most out of it. It comes from bowing back, and scrunching the lower back rear wards, and only in a platform stance can the hip jut out. Then sampras scrunches his back forwards, so it's shoulder over shoulder, hip over hip, back over back. So you can see his rear hip on contact/follow through is now higher than the leading front hip. But it's done so smoothly and effortlessly, that the accuracy rises, and all he has to think about is which tiny part of the ball to hit. Anyone ever see sampras catch a ball toss? It all starts with that toss. If it's right on, the serve has a far higher chance of being right on. He had the best toss I've ever seen, the best motion I've ever seen, and the most accuracy I've ever seen under break point pressure. Maybe it's not coincidental.

sampras serve oh
sampras serve sideways

[lobndropshot]

This looks like Sampras is not pushing his hip but instead deeply bending his knees and making a big shoulder turn. You should try doing those two things and see if it helps your serve.

[GeoffWilliams]

HIs hip starts out about 9" from the front of the base line, and he pushes it out about 5" over the line before contact. That's not due to knee bend. It's due to shoving the whole hitting structure forwards before it; and he dips down and juts the hip out farther, just before leg driving up. That's a conscious learned thing, not just due to knee bend, as so many others don't contact the ball 3' out over the base line like he does. Becker was close at 2 1/2'. Fed is only about 1' out at contact.

The dip backwards, just before leg drive also cause more whip lash to occur. The drive doesn't even start up before the frame drops. The drop is delayed until after the final little dip, the final little hip jut. LIke cracking a whip, the instant before the wrist snaps off, but it's not the wrist snapping. It's everything all at once. It's a whole, not a bunch of learned parts.

All he really thinks and feels is the part of the ball he's aiming for.

That whip lash is missing in almost everyone's serve.

No one but Rampras has ever copied his serve, but even Rampras does not have the hip jut and whip lash right.