This Pronation Thing

[robtennis]

Having a hard time with this. I'm a ~4.5 player (on a good day ) ; playing for 30+ yes. I'd bet the farm that when I hit my lefty serve wide, I'm "carvin" the ball on the outside edge at the 10 o'clock position. At least that's what I tell myself to do on that serve. Sort of like the thinking for the topspin forehand. It's a slow roundhouse curve that lands 3/4 the way up the outside service line and takes my opponent off the court. My arm and racket finish at an opposite angle than the pronate position.

The videos don't lie. The top guns definetly pronate. It's just hard for me to understand how in the hell Fed and the Jokester hit those nasty ass wide slices to the duce court and finish with pronating.

But here's the deal - all these videos show the pros pronating on wide slice serves! How is that? Is it that they are "hitting it harder wide off the court" where I'm "hitting it slower wide off the court"? Maybe their's has lots of spin but flight of ball is straighter than mine even though its wide. Mine may be more like a slow round house changeup. If the pronation takes place after the ball is hit, as i think I heard in one of the videos, then why can't my supination occur also after the ball is hit? And if the answer is yes for both then does it rally matter whether you pronate or supinate if all the other key points of the serve motion are the same for both finishes?

Or, after all is said and done, maybe I'm pronating on my wide slice and not knowing it. No way.

[lobndropshot]

I think the timing of the pronation is key. Here is my theory.

If you don't pronate at all (assuming your grip is correct) during contact you naturally get slice and a wide angle. If you really are pronating at contact then you can get the ball down the middle with good pace.

Here is the key. You must understand that factors that lead to serve placement. and they are. (This is how I work on my placement and fine tune it)
- timing and degree of pronation
- stance and body turn
- timing and degree of body rotation

I like focus on one key at a time when I am working on my placement:
- I start off standing behind the "T" and I work on hitting AD sideline, then center service line, and Duce sideline. All from the same Toss and stance.
- Then I work on hitting my spots just my changing my starting stance.
- Then I work on adding very small amounts of body rotation to hit different spots on the court.
- Lastly I experiment with different levels of the three ingredients to hit different spots on the court to get a feel for what is possible.

I hope you find this helpful.

[stotty]

If the pronation takes place after the ball is hit, as i think I heard in one of the videos,

My understanding of pronation is that it positions the racket for impact, thereafter internal rotation takes places...all in a seamless way, of course. I guess the pronation position is held for a millisecond through contact, but I am not totally sure about that. Which video was that?

It certainly looks like pronation goes on through the contact here:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Serve/1st_Serve&stroke=RF_1stS_Deuce_Rear4_500fps.mp4

[johnyandell]

Rob,

Hard to believe but true. That rotation is critical. This article should make it clear that it is the timing of the rotation that creates location:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/federer_serve/serve_locations/1st_serve_deuce_court/

The full hand and arm rotation--pronation is not a correct term--but I understand what you mean by it, is critical to racket speed and to ball speed and spin.

Guess why Andy Murray serves 85mph on his second serve? You don't need this rotation to serve wide--only if you want max racket speed for you.

[robtennis]

John- that's amazing. In first Video Fed is definetly hitting down the T and then wide. You can see that because the position of the ball as it crosses the baseline in the video are at different locations for each serve. I'd describe it as on the T serve the face of racket at contact is "more flat" than the wide serve as being a millisecond "more closed". In both he is definitly pronating. (or whatever the correct word is)

So here's the burning question - what am I doing? If a high speed camera were pointed at me serving wide to the ad court (I'm lefty), would it show that I am in deed rotating arm and racket opposite to pronation as I think I am? I ask because my tennis buddies tell me the lefty serve of mine, wide is tuff to return because it takes them off the court.
Or a better question, on some ocasions do any of the top pros ever do the opposite of pronation and immitate me? :-)

Here' my point that the directional rotation of the arm and racket should produce a better wide serve if you do not pronate but go the opposite way. Take baseball compared to a righty serve (I'll use righty so you weirdo righties can understand better). The ball spin of a pronated serve is the same direction as a right handed screwball (clockwise or out from the server), whereas the ball spin of an opposite pronate is the same direction as a curve ball (counterclockwise or in to the server). Now, what does a right handed pitcher do when he wants the ball to break left? He throws a curve. If he wants the ball to break right he throws a screwball. So.......if you are a righty and want your serve to "break wide" off the ad court, you'll "hit a curve ball" by making sure your racket ends up facing in, or opposite to pronate. By pronating you'd be wanting the ball to go out wide of the service box but the spin of the ball would be fighting the air pressure to make it break in to the service box opposite to what you want the ball to travel.

(now someone get Federer on the line so I can explain to him what he's been doing wrong all these years.)


-r

[GeoffWilliams]

They also pronate on kick serves wide to the ad side, which when I do it, seems unnatural, but who can question the pros.

[johnyandell]

Rob,
I think you need to video yourself to answer those questions. I get a headache trying to imagine based on strictly verbal descriptions--no mental picture. The casio hs cameras are only a few hundred bucks and the iphone6 will film at 240fps.
But I would have to disagree with the idea that some how the serve is better without the number one power component.

[bottle]

Two Separate Methods

One teaching pro, Dave Smith of Utah, has said that one can hit a slice serve in either of the two basic ways described in the discussion here.

But modern serves tend to be fast because if they are not they get clobbered, and as a matter of fact that happens at any playing level by now.

Still, one can learn a slow carved serve way wide-- you could even call it a "skill" or "trick" shot. To perfect it, find a copy of RACQUET WORK: THE KEY TO TENNIS by John M. Barnaby. While never mentioning Barnaby, Patrick Rafter and the business manager/advertising man Will Hamilton seem open to the idea-- for a changeup-- at Fuzzy Yellow Balls.

TennisChiro and John Yandell will both tell you however to maximize internal arm rotation before, during and after the ball and do this on all serves whether you call them flat or spun.

The danger, I think, is catching too much of the ball, i.e., failing to lead into it or up it with enough edge.

So one works on every adjustment trick available including "pronation" without compromising the uninhibitedness of the internal arm roll (a whole arm roll from the humerus within its shoulder cave).

Me and my doubles partner however once got to win our division of a big tournament in Virginia because he-- although he had only played tennis several months-- could hit (amazingly) a super good kick serve and I knew how to carve to a paveloader finish for a brand of soft slice that our high school champion finalist opponents had never seen before.

All that said, the two methods are diametrically opposed and life may be too short to do both.

I advise totally uninhibited IAR (internal arm rotation) just like Roger in the video. Don't hold back. The racket is turning with great power as contact occurs.

[eaglesburg]

They also pronate on kick serves wide to the ad side, which when I do it, seems unnatural, but who can question the pros.

I think I pronate on all serves. I don't have to think about it though. It happens naturally.

[bottle]

No, make it happen unnaturally. Exaggerate the hell out of it. (I here like others am indulging some lack of a distinction in this thread between IAR and pronation. The term pronation comes from anatomy books and just refers to twist from the forearm. That can happen too but is far less of a big deal.)

[robtennis]

"........But modern serves tend to be fast because if they are not they get clobbered, and as a matter of fact that happens at any playing level by now..........."

Bingo! I don't want to beat this to death but this is probably the key. Rotating the arm out probably allows for a harder / faster serve that is more difficult to return. I think the bigs are sacraficing a maximum wider slice to gain max speed. They accept the ball is actually curving into the court (my screwball example above) but the mph is more important.

If the arm can rotate a greater distance going in (opposite of pronate) than rotating out, can we agree that Fed could put more angle on the ball if he chose to rotate arm in?

I was watching a slo mo of a woman's serve on Tennis Channel the other night. You could see the ball breaking out wide after leaving the racket (ad ct). I'm having a hard time believing that tailing ball out wide was hit with a pronated arm rotation.

[stotty]

Serving can be a funny business...on all levels.

A couple of good players at my club can roll a serve deep in the box so that it rises up (not all that aggressively) and no one can do anything with it…no one.

We often criticise Andy Murray’s second serve, and rightly so when it lands short, but some of those 70mph second serves no one can do anything with either, even Djokovic will just play them back and can wreak no havoc. Other players lower down the food chain hit 80mph second serves but theirs get routinely massacred. There is clearly a way of doing it…

Another player at my club does it differently. He doesn’t “roll” the ball in, he slides serves in which somehow stay very low. He is a placer and can hit all the spots. He’s an irritating player to play because he makes the returner feel inept after a set or so. He doesn’t serve that hard. I doubt his first serve hits 90mph. He does serves plenty of aces.

I think the best way to learn a good serve is to learn placement first. Learn to keep an opponent at bay without serving that hard. It’s a top lesson to learn if you can do it. Power can always come later.

[bottle]

Here is the key. You must understand the factors that lead to serve placement. and they are. (This is how I work on my placement and fine tune it)
- timing and degree of pronation
- stance and body turn
- timing and degree of body rotation

Hope you won't mind if I substitute IAR (internal arm rotation) for "pronation" here. Then I am in agreement with your focus on concentrating on one bullet point at a time in different practice sessions.

I have come, though, largely through the exhortation of others, to think that degree of IAR should be at the maximum permitted by one's body at all times. So that kind of eliminates IAR as a variable.

To substitute for it I introduce adduction, the amount of horizontal elbow travel around the body that occurs at a special time before IAR and arm extension from the elbow. Best perhaps to go macro here and simply think of the most powerful arm throw available to one.

That "macro" idea though doesn't prevent adduction from being a big variable. I see amount of adduction as varying from none to very knifey somewhere toward the net. Or maybe one adduces to one position all the time, which frees one up better to concentrate on your other good variables.

P.S. I just re-read Stotty's post before this one. His description of various servers in his club makes me think I should maybe bring my no-IAR serve back out of the mausoleum. A former number one player at Alabama before that university started bringing in ringers told me he hits the no-IAR at half or quarter speed.

He also told me who in our mutual town, Front Royal, Virginia, taught him the shot, a player not nearly as good as his father, who had a great backhand, but the University of Alabama fellow greatly respected this guy for giving him such a winner of a soft serve.

Me, I permanently disrespect that guy for having me play-- in the town championship-- a convicted diamond thief in a match attended only by the diamond thief's gang.