Forehand takeback

[ssd30]

Forum,
I've noticed a few young players taking a slightly different takeback from what I'll call the ATP swing framework. Everything seems aligned with what Macci talks about except that these players have the racquet head below the hand before the "pull" of the racquet forward. Macci says the racquet head must be above the hand before the pull. Take a look and let me know what you think. Is this an anomaly or a new trend, or neither?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5UmPm5nwq0

Hyeon Chung, top 100

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp0cvO7StTk

Karen Khachanov

Jack Sock seems to do it on some balls as well.

[seano]

Jack Sock

Jack Sock doesn't keep the racquet head below his hand, he actually keeps the racquet head in front of his hand on the takeback and will hold it there till even after the bounce and then has an extreme "flip" that created one of the heaviest balls on the tour.

Sean

[tennis_chiro]

definitely "pre-op"

Forum,
I've noticed a few young players taking a slightly different takeback from what I'll call the ATP swing framework. Everything seems aligned with what Macci talks about except that these players have the racquet head below the hand before the "pull" of the racquet forward. Macci says the racquet head must be above the hand before the pull. Take a look and let me know what you think. Is this an anomaly or a new trend, or neither?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5UmPm5nwq0

Hyeon Chung, top 100

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp0cvO7StTk

Karen Khachanov

Jack Sock seems to do it on some balls as well.

Dr. Klapper on the radio show Weekend Warrior here in LA likes to say everyone is either pre-op or post-op. These guys are definitely pre-op. They may be generating some serious SSC effects, but I really wonder how long they will last, not to mention whether there is any consistency to their shot making.

don

[stotty]

Forum,
I've noticed a few young players taking a slightly different takeback from what I'll call the ATP swing framework. Everything seems aligned with what Macci talks about except that these players have the racquet head below the hand before the "pull" of the racquet forward. Macci says the racquet head must be above the hand before the pull. Take a look and let me know what you think. Is this an anomaly or a new trend, or neither?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5UmPm5nwq0

Hyeon Chung, top 100

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp0cvO7StTk

Karen Khachanov

Jack Sock seems to do it on some balls as well.

The way I understand it, in an ATP forehand the racket head should be above and to the right of the hitting hand. Of all the components I have always taken this position to be one of the most critical in producing SSC. It's the point where (invasively speaking) bones are about to go one way and muscles and tendons are going to be resisting for a spilt second. A lot of players seem to be able to make this position but nothing spectacular comes out, which to me indicates it's very dependent of timing and the ability of the player himself.

So, for me, the players in ssd30's video just aren't doing it. That is not to say they don't have good forehands, or that they aren't producing SSC, it's just that they're missing a vital component.

I would be interested to know what others think about the forehands posted by ssd30

[don_budge]

A couple of golf cues…for your perusal (tennis_chiro, 10splayer, anyone)

The way I understand it, in an ATP forehand the racket head should be above and to the right of the hitting hand. Of all the components I have always taken this position to be one of the most critical in producing SSC. It's the point where (invasively speaking) bones are about to go one way and muscles and tendons are going to be resisting for a spilt second. A lot of players seem to be able to make this position but nothing spectacular comes out, which to me indicates it's very dependent of timing and the ability of the player himself.

So, for me, the players in ssd30's video just aren't doing it. That is not to say they don't have good forehands, or that they aren't producing SSC, it's just that they're missing a vital component.

I would be interested to know what others think about the forehands posted by ssd30

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Stotty. It helps others to get their heads around a subject to "hear" the thought process of another.

I would be very curious to hear what tennis_chiro and 10splayer think about this video. It's a golf video…but it might just apply here and I know that these two are avid students of the game of golf as well. I always say that I learned more about teaching tennis from playing and teaching golf than I ever did from playing tennis. I realize that much of what I say is…well you know. Subjective. Loading the right arm…in the golf swing. In the tennis swing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or-Zl2L6OGY

What the heck…here's another while we are on the subject. Of the similarities between golf and tennis. It's the Hogan pivot drill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQESBJB-vyQ

Pivoting…we don't hear that term used much in tennis. But I think that it may apply…fundamentally speaking.

Finally here is an excellent short video regarding the transition between the backswing and the forward swing…wide going back, narrow coming back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDGR_iDojWc

Like I said…the golf is very illustrative of some very important fundamentals that are present in every athletic swing.

[johnyandell]

Painful to watch. That first guy I don't believe is the future of the modern forehand...and his serve is a technical disaster as well.

[stotty]

Painful to watch. That first guy I don't believe is the future of the modern forehand...and his serve is a technical disaster as well.

The kid in the first clip doesn't appear to be a good player at all, the other kid looks much more credible from the bits and bobs there is to see.

[klacr]

Painful to watch. That first guy I don't believe is the future of the modern forehand...and his serve is a technical disaster as well.

The first guy is Hyeon Chung. 18 year old Korean kid who actually broke into the top 100 earler this year and is currently ranked 74 on ATP Tour. ATP actually did a feature on him...
Star of Tomorrow Chung http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/star-of-tomorrow-chung

The kid in the first clip doesn't appear to be a good player at all, the other kid looks much more credible from the bits and bobs there is to see.

The "other" kid is Karen Khachanov, 19 year old from Russia who is ranked 231 in the world ATP.

My unscientific opinion of their forehands...I don't like them. Ugly.

But as Gunther Bresnik said in a previous interview on tennisplayer.net regarding Gulbis' forehand... "I don't actually care how his stroke looks, I like the outcome of his stroke".
Interesting

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...nther_bresnik/


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[GeoffWilliams]

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_serve_body_rotation/ps_serve_body_rotation.html?PS1stSAdBodyRotationSide2.mov

Want to see the best serve motion ever devised: Watch that clip.

Sampras loads up at a full 90 degree angle to the shoulder rotation/pronation.

He waits to drop the frame until after he has driven his left hip out as far as he possibly can. He waits to drop the frame until after his leg drive has already begun!

His double loop is two near perfect circles, one towards the net, (frame head pathway), and the next one towards the target pronation. The first circle towards the net is just a by product of his external shoulder rotation, cocking fully towards the net, past the base line.

His initial take back, is actually parallel to the base line, on his forearm. Then, as he rotates his chest first rotates, and then the shoulders 90 degrees forwards, the frame just comes along for the ride, and he pronates forwards, which causes the frame to dive straight down. First,he rotates his chest, his arched back stays arched, causing the elbow to go higher than if his back were stiff/straight, so he goes from an initial back scrunch back wards, to a forwards back scrunch, but he's just rotating the shoulders 90 degrees only, not 180 degrees, as if he's trying to jam his shoulders into a parking coin meter slot!

So even though it looks/seems as if his first circle/loop, is forced/aimed towards the net, it acutally is just his take back that is parallel to the base line and his own shoulders more or less, and the frame just goes along for the ride, towards the net, not the take back per se, nor his forearm per se, as the frame heads towards the left net post, his external shoulder rotation cocks as far towards the net as he can, yet the foremarm and take back, are not driven/felt there.

[ssd30]

Watch "Jack Sock Forehand In Super Slow Motion - 2013 Cincinnati Open" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/CWqrVOW_-SE

Look at the 8 second mark. His hand is well above the racquet head.

[seano]

Jack Sock

Jack Sock does keep the racquet head above his hand in the takeback. He just keeps the tip of the racquet pointing forward for an extremely long time, even after the ball bounces to produce a hyper flip. Even longer than Nadal. Christophe Delavaut does an excellent video of this.

[stroke]

Jack Sock does keep the racquet head above his hand in the takeback. He just keeps the tip of the racquet pointing forward for an extremely long time, even after the ball bounces to produce a hyper flip. Even longer than Nadal. Christophe Delavaut does an excellent video of this.

I think this is very true. Sock does produce a violent or hyper flip, as you say. His grip, which appears to be about a full western, does not allow him to staighten out his arm and extend like Nadal.

[klacr]

Watch "Jack Sock Forehand In Super Slow Motion - 2013 Cincinnati Open" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/CWqrVOW_-SE

Look at the 8 second mark. His hand is well above the racquet head.

That forehand hurts me just watching it.

The first forehand hit in the sequence was even more exaggerated due to the fact that he was hitting a ball way below his ideal contact point in relation to that grip. Good video clip ssd30. Now I need to ice my elbow

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

Watch "Jack Sock Forehand In Super Slow Motion - 2013 Cincinnati Open" on YouTube

https://youtu.be/CWqrVOW_-SE

Look at the 8 second mark. His hand is well above the racquet head.

stroke and seano are right. Jack's racket head is to the right and above the hand at the critical point...unlike the other two kids you posted. Jack's forehand looks violent even in slow motion. But, yes, it's one weird and complicated wind up. I just wonder if his preparation and wind up sets up the table for what follows.

[johnyandell]

ssd,

Thanks for posting and initiating this discussion. Keep it up please.

John Yandell