Interactive Forum June: Ayesha Forehand

[10splayer]

Let's see what Bottle replies, but if you look at the point Ayesha has her arm fully extended and starts to accelerate forward, I think you can see that her hand is further behind her body (farther from the net) than Roger's at the point where he has gotten his arm straight, the racket head to its lowest point and started to really pull and accelerate to contact; probably not twice as far, but substantially more.

don

Not sure what you mean by farther from the net? "Behind her" usually means (in my vernacular) "behind the shoulder plane". It seems that her arm is internally rotated when she "pulls" and if so, one really couldn't have the racquet "behind her". Camera angles are always deceptive, but the "line to the ball" looks very straight and linear.

[tennis_chiro]

Not sure what you mean by farther from the net? "Behind her" usually means (in my vernacular) "behind the shoulder plane". It seems that her arm is internally rotated when she "pulls" and if so, one really couldn't have the racquet "behind her". Camera angles are always deceptive, but the "line to the ball" looks very straight and linear.

Certainly, I might be wrong here. You are right: in our common teaching venacular, behind her usually means behind the shoulder plane; that's why I said farther from the net, as in closer to the back fence and, in our view in this clip of Ayesha, further to our left from her right hip. I was trying to make sense out of Bottle's assessment, but I still seem to agree. Tried to look at an objective way to view it.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Center&stroke=RFFHCenterNeutralStanceRear_250fps.mp4

Try looking at the position of roger's right hand at the point the racket head reaches it's lowest point; it's next to his right hip. But for Ayesha, I think it is farther away from her right hip and we see more space there.

Stotty, is right, it's not fair to compare open stance shots, but this is a closed stance shot of Roger.

It's a bit subjective, but I do feel she needs to let the racket head drop a little more. I do still believe in low to high of the racket head.

don

[jschaff1954]

All things considered, these are well struck and beautiful strokes. But there is inconsistency in the mechanics. But what can you expect from this age player.

If you notice in all those Fed forehand videos, RF hits off of his right foot, not his left foot. And an open stance is best way to generate body torque to speed the racket thru the hitting zone. Watch Venus. She is the most extreme from BOTH sides actually.

In this series of five forehands, #1,4,and 5 are all hit with the body leaning slightly backward at impact, thus stopping the body moving and allowing all the kinetic energy to come out the tip of the racket. This is what she should try to remember to do as it lets the racket move more quickly with less effort on her part, and a more consistent stroke time and time again. You can see this motion in other sports. Watch Adrian Beltre throw a runner out from 3rd base by leaning back when he throws. It gives a base for the energy to FLY out of the hand and to the baseball. Same thing with batters leaning back to get home runs, quarterbacks to zing a football downfield. Increased velocity on the ball at impact in all these sports.

[bottle]

Well, there is a lot to reply to, some more momentous than other parts, but I shouldn't be hypercritical since arriving at my present view has taken 15 years.

The poet and assistant varsity tennis coach at Penn State, Theodore Roethke, said that if you've worked on something for 10 years, don't be surprised when the audience for it doesn't reach full comprehension in the first second.

I agree with jschaff1954 and Vic Braden that abrupt stoppage of rotating body will accelerate the arm, but don't believe that is how Roger Federer generates spin. Whether you think I'm right or wrong about that, Brian Gordon never mentions this phenomenon of deceleration-acceleration in his analysis-- not once.

As for 10splayer's lawyerly concern over what is a behind, let me be hopefully non-incendiary by simply positing that behind is toward the rear fence and forward is toward the net.

I was hoping to simplify the whole distance question through the image of a rainbow. Front of the rainbow would be toward the net, rear of the rainbow toward the rear fence, with player at mid-point under the overhead arc.

This is the way Roger Federer starts his backswing. The elbow pretty much stays where it is compared to that of Ivan Lendl which flies up behind him.

The racket tip starts a rainbow. Halfway through, however, the racket tip desists from rainbow-like behavior. The racket tip doesn't fly over-- it slows as elbow gets out of the way. This closes the racket head while creating a short and sentient backswing-- far shorter and slower than Ayesha's or mine until last week.

So Roger's backswing is short. The forward tract of his forehand however is long. His elbow straightens from top of the swing and some horizontal adduction of the arm may start that soon too. Rick Macci's image of dogpat applies more therefore to the videos of Ayesha shown here than to Roger. For Roger, the short backswing takes longer than the straightening of his arm. Or at least did the last time I counted beats. Counting clicks would be better for a lawyer or extremely fastidious person. I'll try that once I master the new Tennisplayer technology.

But the whole discussion is a bit too lawyerly for me. It could well be that Roger's arm extension ends farther forward than Ayesha's but not twice as far forward, as Don suggests.

Me, I'm just a guy trying to make his Federfore (imitation Roger Federer forehand) as zingy and accurate as possible.

For that purpose I rely on such anecdotal material as Geoffrey Williams describing a crosscourt service return where he started backswing more to the side than behind him.

Note: Now I see how the technology works. First you click on one of the arrows. Then you use your keyboard arrow. Immediately, I see that lifting of the racket tip is slower than I thought. But this is not about how smart or dumb I am, but what will be useful to you, the reader. So I suggest that you do your own count.

[bottle]

Ayesha-- at the risk of your losing patience with me, I want to say that your repeating video here (http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...ead.php?t=2985) is looking better and better. It could be that you already have a bit of a wriggle at the top to close the racket. I just thought I saw some manipulation lower near end of the arm extension. Amazing how hard it is precisely to delineate the different parts of a well-grooved athletic motion.

That said, I do think one can see a pronounced snake-like wriggle to close the racket face in all of the 500 fps videos of Roger Federer. And I'm intrigued that my first counts with arrow button on my keyboard (in the new technology) show that the lifting of the racket tip and then the wriggle are of about the same duration with subsequent straightening of the arm just a little quicker.

As for my talk about "rainbows," that may apply more to myself than to you. Because, unlike you, when my racket reaches low point behind me, it is not so closed. Closed a little but not as much as yours. I guess that in development of this shot I just got tired of the need for any wriggle or conscious closing at all.

The stroke then developed from there, influenced no doubt by Senator Paul Laxalt of Nevada who thought on the basis of physique and temperament I ought to put more sweep in all of my strokes. I may not have been a fan of Paul's politics but sure did appreciate his tennis and his advice and his forehand taught to him by Helen Wills as she was dropping the millstone "Moody" from the end of her name.

If someone wants to try the rainbow shot which I came to like so much, just take the racket back right over the top and let it settle behind behind you and mondo back there (remain in the slot though!). This shot hooks nicely to the left for me. Two coins, one on edge, one on side. Never swing too straight at a tennis ball-- you might cup it and not get around on it. I'm thinking now that this shot is probably better hit for flatness than topspin.

But when I really want topspin, I plan now to use the snaky wriggle of Roger and probably yourself. If I get good, I'll hit flat off that version too with pretty much the same swing.

[jan8]

Ayesha Forehand

Outstanding Type 3 forehand. If she can get off the ground, would be even better!

[10splayer]

Outstanding Type 3 forehand. If she can get off the ground, would be even better!

I'm with you. She's doing a lot of things well here..

[bottle]

Now that I've learned how to handle the arrows in the new TennisPlayer video technology, I can see that Ayesha does indeed close her strings on the way down. Roger doesn't need to do that. He already closed his strings and a lot, up top. Which means that his arm straightening can be more uninhibited. ("uninhibited," by the way, does not mean "fast." For more precise discussion of speed of arm straightening, please see other recent posts or start counting with your keyboard arrow yourself.)

[10splayer]

Now that I've learned how to handle the arrows in the new TennisPlayer video technology, I can see that Ayesha does indeed close her strings on the way down. Roger doesn't need to do that. He already closed his strings and a lot, up top. Which means that his arm straightening can be more uninhibited. ("uninhibited," by the way, does not mean "fast." For more precise discussion of speed of arm straightening, please see other recent posts or start counting with your keyboard arrow yourself.)

Verify this. Or not. With an easternish grip, with the elbow bent and leading backwards pronate the forearm (start to close the racquet). Notice what TENDS to happen with the arm. It straightens.

A lot of the elbow angle, (from bent to straight) is a result of pronation and when that occurs. It may explain the disparity between the two subjects.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong.

[hockeyscout]

How old is this girl?

[GeoffWilliams]

World class players are more dynamic in their coils, and uncoils. Fed also inverts his fh towards the net, and snaps back more, and coils more, uncoils faster, etc. He uses more emotional power.

[bottle]

Amar send me a more recent video in which Ayesha has already changed her racket closing so that it happens up top like Federer and not on the way down.

To me, she looks good and athletic in this video, but Geoffrey Williams is probably right, we all could "snap back more, coil more, uncoil faster," etc. and "use more emotional power."

Why not? It's a learning process which I would submit ought to go on at any age.

Ayesha certainly was willing to try my proposed change. She is a learner who still is open to new ideas and no doubt is willing to try other stuff as well.