Interactive Forum June: Ayesha Forehand

[10splayer]

I agree. She has a nice internally rotated shoulder position on preparation, she externally rotates her shoulder in preparation to contact, and she internally rotates her shoulder into and through contact. She does not have the violent flip of Federer or Nadal, but she will only get better.

Yeah, I wonder if I'm missing something here, but the position of the pull is perfect. I see a very compact, tidy, backswing, a direct line to the balll and very good RHS

[holyhobo]

Dear members of the forum. Im very grateful for this site.Thank you all for being so encouraging and supportive..

My name is Amar and I have been helping my daughter Ayesha with her tennis. We are fans of the great RF and live an unrealistic dream of duplicating his forehand..����
I have spent countless hours researching articles on tennisplayer and the great feedback we get from our forum.

It's amazing how quickly you all could identify and define Ayesha's forehand problems. Please suggest what I can do to help her forehand.

[don_budge]

10splayer and the Forehand...

Yeah, I wonder if I'm missing something here, but the position of the pull is perfect. I see a very compact, tidy, backswing, a direct line to the balll and very good RHS

You rarely miss anything. I see what you see. It's all about the pull isn't it? Your comment about the backswing is so good…so compact. Your comment is compact as well as her backswing. How do you do it? In so few words.

Evaluating a stroke, let's start from the ground up. Look at those feet. It appears she has time but insists on hitting fairly open. That 3rd forehand in the sequence is a bit extreme.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Regarding the pull…and the footwork. It's almost as if I have a convert here in the footwork department. Not that I invented anything other than devotion to fundamentals.

She is a bit open…but she places her weight on her front foot. This is ok. But what might not be so ok is that lack of leg engagement or rather the limited amount of leg engagement. She might just be a bit too upright. The actual stroke is rather pleasing to my eye. Let's see if we can get her to sit down into her derriere just a bit and really give that racquet a good pull using her whole body. If she is standing to upright the hips are not totally engaged in the swing. Closing her stance just a bit will also further engage the hips. Hips largely dependent upon the placement of the feet. It's all about balance and energy…like a good golf swing. How tall is she? She appears to be fairly tall with long legs.

This is the Federer mystique about the forehand. His total body engagement with the stroke. As klacr points out…it is working from the ground up. As 10splayer illustrates…it is all about getting set up in the backswing to pull. Butt back…head forwards. Step to the ball and chest on the ball…get the arm (thus the racquet) to swing from the shoulder.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

Notice in frame number #46 (clicking with the arrow key) he is in position to go forwards and it starts with the feet and legs, then the hips are firing. By spreading his feet, bending his knees and sitting into his ass he gets himself below and behind the ball to drive himself up into it. I think this is the only component, the element of spread feet with bent knees and sitting, that I see missing and it is the one component that is going to add a nice multiplier effect to what the young lady is already doing so nicely.

Whereas in frame #36 of the young lady's first forehand she is in position to go forwards but she is lacking the "semi-sitting" position of Federer therefore she is lacking the balance and the total body engagement from the feet upwards. Once you get her into position...you can begin to reevaluate her stroke. But not before. 10splayer may just be RIGHT…the actual stroke looks very nice. But the challenge is to eek out all of the potential energy of the stroke and her being.

Thousands of balls…once her body is in position she will find the timing. The perfect timing…ala Federer. Recommended reading for Ayesha…"She" by H. Rider Haggard. She…who must be obeyed.

[stotty]

Dear members of the forum. Im very grateful for this site.Thank you all for being so encouraging and supportive..

My name is Amar and I have been helping my daughter Ayesha with her tennis. We are fans of the great RF and live an unrealistic dream of duplicating his forehand..����
I have spent countless hours researching articles on tennisplayer and the great feedback we get from our forum.

It's amazing how quickly you all could identify and define Ayesha's forehand problems. Please suggest what I can do to help her forehand.

I always think Tennisplayer is the best resource in the world for developing young tennis players. I have used it many times to broaden my knowledge and develop better players myself.

What you have done with your girl is seriously good coaching in my view. Many coaches strive to do exactly what you have achieved thusfar.

I know it may seem a minor thing, but stopping your girl from nodding her head just prior to contact as she does on most shots might help stabilise the shot even more. The head should be still, fixed.

[tennis_chiro]

I always think Tennisplayer is the best resource in the world for developing young tennis players. I have used it many times to broaden my knowledge and develop better players myself.

What you have done with your girl is seriously good coaching in my view. Many coaches strive to do exactly what you have achieved thusfar.

I know it may seem a minor thing, but stopping your girl from nodding her head just prior to contact as she does on most shots might help stabilise the shot even more. The head should be still, fixed.

I'd be careful about the head movement. She doesn't actually nod her head as much as she follows the ball all the way to impact. She should do that more with her eyeballs and less with her neck muscles, but if you look carefully, you'll see that here ear doesn't change height as she makes that move with her head right before and at contact. And it appears to be the start of a great forehand in any case.

I come in on the same wavelength as don_budge as far as getting down a little more and loading her plant leg a little better. She needs to get the racket head a little more below the ball. The stroke trajectory she has looks more like the top WTA women than the top ATP men; the women tend to hit a flatter ball, but I think the women's game will evolve to a heavier ball that holds up better under pressure.

We are comparing to Roger's forehand as the model and I think you will find he gets a little more below the ball a little earlier. I think one reason for this is he "pulls" from a higher point and the downward momentum of the racket head throws it lower as it is going through the SSC. I'd like to see Ayesha keep the racket head closer to her right shoulder and a little higher just a fraction longer, perhaps not even extending quite so far back when she straightens out her right arm, maybe keeping the left hand on the racket a tiny fraction longer. At least, that is what I would want to experiment with. I want that lower racket head to come from the movement down of the forearm more than from additional knee bend, although I'd like to see that too.

And I love the fact she hits through the ball so well with so much extension. It's just that the game is getting so fast that you have to build in more margin of error with a little more ball rotation. I'd rather she did that by getting the racket head to come from further down than by manipulating the wiper more through the hitting zone; I think that tends to take some of the penetration out of the stroke. Of course, I have no data on that; perhaps Brian Gordon does.

don

PS Just to add that I am advocating dropping the racket head, not the hand, as delineated in JY's current article on the Myth of Low to High.

[bottle]

To transition from this rainbow backswing to a pull from higher, as Don recommends, may not be as simple as it seems.

Technically, the change is easy. Just pull arm sideways toward body while temporizing the racket head. Don't keep the racket tip going, in other words. And take some time up there with arm still bent. The racket head can stay on the same path it started coming up. Initial path curves up a coin on edge if one can see that. But after the developmental change is made the racket head will not then go down the back of the coin as is happening with Ayesha right now.

The hard part is to still do everything one does when using Ayesha's full coin or overhead rainbow backswing. Coin is first on edge but then on side too, to create large separation out to right like Roger.

I thought I had it made, had completed the transition, but on a second day of competition saw that I wasn't there yet.

So I return to coin on edge full backswing like Ayesha here, alternating until the new arrangement produces hits just as good.

The good hits are characterized by a slight hook to left in departing ball, I would submit, and are produced by starting wipe immediately from end of flip.

These observations come mostly from self-feed, and I certainly do value the previous communications I've shared with Holyhobo. I see Ayesha and myself on a similar track whether that makes me egocentered or not. A difference is that her racket is more closed at rear end of the rainbow. Mine will get similarly closed, just in a different place, in the new arrangement. But "pulling from the top?" I haven't even had time to try that.

Maybe that is the stupid little thing that could make a big difference. Right now, perhaps, I have been "pushing from the top" and suddenly found myself, as I say, on the second day, abbreviating some of the stuff that follows, with disastrous consequence such as too much sidespin, although those two shots carried enough top to limp onto the back line for winners that caused my opponents to groan.

The bent arm finally extends (late!), right? Somebody might call that pushing-- I just did. And I call my coin on side pulling. In this sense one does both at the same time or at least will if one starts the pull from when arm is still bent.

[bottle]

All right. Now the Google-Chrome love affair has finally agreed to manage my plugins and I can see the repeating video, the first one, in addition to the second. And what it shows me is Ayesha's racket closing just before the mondo (the flip). So she hasn't gotten her strings closed that much down there through use of a radical grip. But wouldn't it be fun not to have to manipulate the racket at all as arm extends? Manipulation is necessary with a mild grip but can be accomplished, as Roger does it, up high with arm still bent.

[bottle]

This one almost seems like an illustration even though the model is a different guy (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...1%20500fps.mp4). Waiting or starting or neutral position is lower than I would like, and the swing is accomplished with a slightly more bent arm, but in all other aspects the stroke seem the same as what Don is talking about, at least in my present view (haven't been to court yet).

[don_budge]

From Ben Hogan to Roger Federer…the connection

I come in on the same wavelength as don_budge as far as getting down a little more and loading her plant leg a little better. She needs to get the racket head a little more below the ball. The stroke trajectory she has looks more like the top WTA women than the top ATP men; the women tend to hit a flatter ball, but I think the women's game will evolve to a heavier ball that holds up better under pressure.

We are comparing to Roger's forehand as the model and I think you will find he gets a little more below the ball a little earlier. I think one reason for this is he "pulls" from a higher point and the downward momentum of the racket head throws it lower as it is going through the SSC.

don

PS Just to add that I am advocating dropping the racket head, not the hand, as delineated in JY's current article on the Myth of Low to High.

I just love how good old Ben Hogan holds up his right hand as he is talking. Ironically it is in about the same position as Roger's right hand at the top of his backswing. Then he magically lowers it with a movement with his hips…with his lower body. Not too many people talk about the hips in tennis. "At the top of the swing…" it's the lower body that makes the move. Not the shoulders. Feet first…look at the feet. If they are not in proper position then the hips are not in position either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

If you don't believe Ben…go ask Roger. Look at his feet…look at his lower body. See Roger pull. Pull with all of his might. He isn't using just his arm…he makes optimal use of his "lower body" just as Mr. Hogan lectures. Now if you don't mind…I will demonstrate he casually says before walloping a driver. Really cool stuff.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

Just a tad more of an athletic stance…sit down into your swing.

[bottle]

Ayesha, please see my post today under A New Year's Serve since I think it applies to us both.

[bottle]

On Steve's Sit-down

The sit-down posture that Steve sees in Roger's forehand reminds me of a pocket billiards player I knew.

I won't mention his name since he still might be alive, but he was the City Editor of The Middletown Press in Middletown, Connecticut. Previously, he was City Editor of the San Jose Mercury.

This editor had two awful problems. The first was that his reporters were taking longer and longer lunch breaks to play pool.

The second was that his very attractive red-haired wife did not like Middletown, Connecticut.

He attacked the first problem by showing up at lunch break and cleaning all of our clocks.

He knew the angles, it turned out (and we should have known that). In addition, he had a sit-down stance in which his butt, slanted to the left, cantilevered his arm and cue like a Bucyrus-Erie steam shovel (or a gas shovel).

The second problem was more intractable. His wife moved back to California. Eventually, he retired, and I believe that he moved back to California too.

[bottle]

Maypole Action in June

Wawrinka, not Federer, plays Djokovich in the final of The French Open this morning.

That line-up however does not alter the fact that Roger is the pre-eminent player of this or maybe any age.

I remember how, in the beginning, Bungalo Bill and I would spar in different tennis websites over whether Roger was the best model for any player's forehand.

"Why not James Blake?" BB would offer along with half a dozen other names.

Soon however came Nadal and Verdasco who had no qualms about adapting Roger's long-arm practice.

Throughout, a loud chorus of voices hurged that Roger was all genius and physical specimen and uniquely personal mannerisms and don't do this at home.

One might, they opined, learn from the way he keeps his head set at contact but let nothing else apply.

But Roger brought us the flip and wipe (not that he was the first to do that) by now pretty much incorporated by every player from intermediate on up, even though Jimmy Arias preached from the airways not to go there if one were a 4.5 or less.

Finally, Gordon, Macci and Yandell came along with a joint effort to invent an omnibus.

The new optimal forehand supposedly was based entirely on science and included both double bend and straight arm possibility.

Brian Gordon however leaned toward the straight arm with the influence of Roger Federer prevalent everywhere.

There is no shame whatever in having picked Roger Federer as useful model.

One wouldn't want to go up against him in a dance contest, but common sense figures, or so I figure, in his strokes.

That holyhobo and his daughter Ayesha in India still want to learn from Roger shows discernment and is just as admirable a course as it ever was.

"Beautiful strokes are good strokes," Chris Lewit has written.

One thing I see in the repeating video here though is a backswing twice as long as Roger's. A rainbow like this goes up in front of one but then goes down behind one. I know about this because I like to do it too.

It certainly does create good "Maypole action." By that I mean that a dancer (the racket) moves in a circle that also is known as horizonal adduction and happens independent of the body core from the shoulder joint.

Some of that Maypole action also happens after the halved backswing of Roger Federer. Not as much but it is there.

[10splayer]

Wawrinka, not Federer, plays Djokovich in the final of The French Open this morning.

That line-up however does not alter the fact that Roger is the pre-eminent player of this or maybe any age.

I remember how, in the beginning, Bungalo Bill and I would spar in different tennis websites over whether Roger was the best model for any player's forehand.

"Why not James Blake?" BB would offer along with half a dozen other names.

Soon however came Nadal and Verdasco who had no qualms about adapting Roger's long-arm practice.

Throughout, a loud chorus of voices hurged that Roger was all genius and physical specimen and uniquely personal mannerisms and don't do this at home.

One might, they opined, learn from the way he keeps his head set at contact but let nothing else apply.

But Roger brought us the flip and wipe (not that he was the first to do that) by now pretty much incorporated by every player from intermediate on up, even though Jimmy Arias preached from the airways not to go there if one were a 4.5 or less.

Finally, Gordon, Macci and Yandell came along with a joint effort to invent an omnibus.

The new optimal forehand supposedly was based entirely on science and included both double bend and straight arm possibility.

Brian Gordon however leaned toward the straight arm with the influence of Roger Federer prevalent everywhere.

There is no shame whatever in having picked Roger Federer as useful model.

One wouldn't want to go up against him in a dance contest, but common sense figures, or so I figure, in his strokes.

That holyhobo and his daughter Ayesha in India still want to learn from Roger shows discernment and is just as admirable a course as it ever was.

"Beautiful strokes are good strokes," Chris Lewit has written.

One thing I see in the repeating video here though is a backswing twice as long as Roger's. A rainbow like this goes up in front of one but then goes down behind one. I know about this because I like to do it too.

It certainly does create good "Maypole action." By that I mean that a dancer (the racket) moves in a circle that also is known as horizonal adduction and happens independent of the body core from the shoulder joint.

Some of that Maypole action also happens after the halved backswing of Roger Federer. Not as much but it is there.

Bottle,

Not sure what you mean by the backswing being twice as big as Feds..don't see it , could you elaborate?

[tennis_chiro]

Bottle,

Not sure what you mean by the backswing being twice as big as Feds..don't see it , could you elaborate?

Let's see what Bottle replies, but if you look at the point Ayesha has her arm fully extended and starts to accelerate forward, I think you can see that her hand is further behind her body (farther from the net) than Roger's at the point where he has gotten his arm straight, the racket head to its lowest point and started to really pull and accelerate to contact; probably not twice as far, but substantially more.

don

[stotty]

One thing I see in the repeating video here though is a backswing twice as long as Roger's.

Bottle,

Not sure what you mean by the backswing being twice as big as Feds..don't see it , could you elaborate?

Let's see what Bottle replies, but if you look at the point Ayesha has her arm fully extended and starts to accelerate forward, I think you can see that her hand is further behind her body (farther from the net) than Roger's at the point where he has gotten his arm straight, the racket head to its lowest point and started to really pull and accelerate to contact; probably not twice as far, but substantially more.

don

What tennis_chiro points out seems stance related when you look at Federer's forehand in the archive...the point (position in relationship to the body) at which the arm straightens out and pulls forward, that is.