Andy Murray's Serve

[10splayer]

It's rare that I disagree with Bobby S, however, I think Yandell nailed this one. I'm not sure how "loading" in a ground reaction force manner is going to help if the arm is not rotating in maximal degrees AND at the right time.

What we know is that end point RHS is a result (in large part) of joint rotations. If you look at the second video that contrast FEd and Andy, two things stand out to me..One, is that Roger actually rotates the racquet head back, or "outside" the hand in the beginning of the "up" swing. This allows him a "greater" range of motion when he "reverses" the arm rotation (internal shoulder). Fed really is a master at this, as I see this sort of action in many of his strokes. There has been much talk over the years about his forehand, and how it combines old and new elements. To me, the key on that stroke is his ability to increase the 'wiping" range of motion thru the straight arm configuration.. Same principle...By straightening the elbow, he has the rotational (arm) capabilities of someone with a stronger grip....

The other real difference is WHEN the two players "release" or rotate their arms...It's crystal clear that Andy is rotating the arm much earlier in the upswing and racquet "drags"....a serious power outage, and spin inhibitor..
Roger pulls the butt end much longer before he starts to rotate the face into the ball...

We see this same principle in golf. Perhaps the most distinguishing difference in good vs poor golfers, is the duration of "lag". Accomplished golfers retain the angle (between shaft and forearm) until right before contact...Poor golfers start to "cast" or throw the club head at the ball early in the downswing. Again, a tremendous club head speed killer...

Strangely, with players that have this problem, I usually take the legs "out of play" and work on how the arm has to work...Successfully actually. Most people are amazed at how much speed they can attain without driving off the ground that much, provided the arm rotates properly. It's a nice progression.

I wouldn't be surprised if Andy could improve on this in a manner of minutes...LITERALLY.

[klacr]

Despite Andy's imperfections and technical flaws on the serve, he won Madrid. Now makes us wonder how much more he's leaving on table without correcting this serve. If he did fix it, how much of an improvement could we see?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

Timely post

What we know is that end point RHS is a result (in large part) of joint rotations. If you look at the second video that contrast FEd and Andy, two things stand out to me..One, is that Roger actually rotates the racquet head back, or "outside" the hand in the beginning of the "up" swing. This allows him a "greater" range of motion when he "reverses" the arm rotation (internal shoulder). Fed really is a master at this, as I see this sort of action in many of his strokes. There has been much talk over the years about his forehand, and how it combines old and new elements. To me, the key on that stroke is his ability to increase the 'wiping" range of motion thru the straight arm configuration.. Same principle...By straightening the elbow, he has the rotational (arm) capabilities of someone with a stronger grip....

The other real difference is WHEN the two players "release" or rotate their arms...It's crystal clear that Andy is rotating the arm much earlier in the upswing and racquet "drags"....a serious power outage, and spin inhibitor..
Roger pulls the butt end much longer before he starts to rotate the face into the ball...

Strangely, with players that have this problem, I usually take the legs "out of play" and work on how the arm has to work...Successfully actually. Most people are amazed at how much speed they can attain without driving off the ground that much, provided the arm rotates properly. It's a nice progression.

I wouldn't be surprised if Andy could improve on this in a manner of minutes...LITERALLY.

Great post...

Oddly enough a few of us were watching a 20 year-old young man this afternoon (high level player) do exactly what you say Murray does...rotating the arm too early. He serves mostly very flat. He also has grip leaning slightly toward the forehand side. Some of us thought if he led with the racket edge a millisecond longer it would make all the difference...plus the minor grip change would help. Another suggested taking the legs out of the serve a focusing purely on the arms...same as you suggest.

We see this quite a lot even with very good young players. They still have huge serves but an inability to create use spin in an effective way. John suggests focusing on wrist snap might be one cause. We thought over focusing on power might be another.

If I can video the young man's serve next time he plays for us in a couple of weeks, I will. You see exactly what I mean then.

[10splayer]

Great post...

Oddly enough a few of us were watching a 20 year-old young man this afternoon (high level player) do exactly what you say Murray does...rotating the arm too early. He serves mostly very flat. He also has grip leaning slightly toward the forehand side. Some of us thought if he led with the racket edge a millisecond longer it would make all the difference...plus the minor grip change would help. Another suggested taking the legs out of the serve a focusing purely on the arms...same as you suggest.

We see this quite a lot even with very good young players. They still have huge serves but an inability to create use spin in an effective way. John suggests focusing on wrist snap might be one cause. We thought over focusing on power might be another.

If I can video the young man\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s serve next time he plays for us in a couple of weeks, I will. You see exactly what I mean then.

Yup, the whole \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"loading\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" concept is starting to become blown out of proportion. It seems to be the answer to all issues. If I see another 3.5 woman \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"jump\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" up off the ground (on advice from a pro) and then \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"push\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" her arm thru the hitting zone, I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'m gonna scream. Or \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"corkscrew\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" themselves down into the ground and leap up to hit a forehand..It\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s becoming ridiculous.

Very rarely (in my experience) is a lack of ground reaction force the underlying issue in most strokes (as it relates to the kinetic chain) but rather, sequencing problems that produces major power outages.

And chiefly, that the hands and arms out race, and \"release\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" too early. What we see with good players is release, (or rotation) that occurs as late as possible without being \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"late\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\". It\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s one of real keys to speed and efficient kinetic transfer...

I keep coming back to FED, and I don\\\\\\\'t know if he creates the most amount of RHS. But I can tell you this..His input to output ratio is off the charts.

With most players i teach, this ratio is more what I\\\'m looking at..

[10splayer]

Wow that\'s strange..Can\'t even edit that out.

[stotty]

Wow that\\\'s strange..Can\\\'t even edit that out.

Yes, I did PM John about \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ and he\'s looking into it. It\'s over and out until it\'s resolved I feel.

[10splayer]

Yes, I did PM John about \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ and he\\\'s looking into it. It\\\'s over and out until it\\\'s resolved I feel.

Oh good, I thought with Geoff\'s article and the return of Hockeyscout, my keyboard and I were short circuiting.

[johnyandell]

Testing why the apostrophe\'s come out as //

[lobndropshot]

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Cool!

[johnyandell]

According to our programmer \\\"some weird PHP issue...\\\" like I know what that means...he\\\'s on vacation til Wed so we will live with it til then...

[stotty]

Oh good, I thought with Geoff\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s article and the return of Hockeyscout, my keyboard and I were short circuiting.

Ha ha thats funny.

No apostrophes then and keeping posts short with no punctuation seems to do the trick in getting rid of those funny lines

[don_budge]

Repetition is the spice of life…for tennis players and golfers

According to our programmer \\\\\\\"some weird PHP issue...\\\\\\\" like I know what that means...he\\\\\\\'s on vacation til Wed so we will live with it til then...

Just like gzpchus thread \"Great Service Motion\"…this is not the first time this has happened. Tennis and golf are games built on repetitive motions…this snafu should actually be comforting to those truly in love with these games. Repetition is a source of comfort…and solace. We love the security knowing that the same thing will produce the same result.

It does get a bit annoying though if you edit your post several times and you get into your thick skull and dull brain that the / thing will multiply every time you press that save changes button.

Andy\'s serve is ugly…no matter how you slice it.

[don_budge]

The Time...

According to our programmer \\\\\\\"some weird PHP issue...\\\\\\\" like I know what that means...he\\\\\\\'s on vacation til Wed so we will live with it til then...

While you are at it John…the time is off on the forum as well.

[johnyandell]

Ok.

[admin]

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