The ball toss...

[stotty]

Your thoughts on this video article everyone? Is it right, wrong...incomplete. How do you interpret this advice:

http://issues.tennistuesday.net/03-31-2015/p/8

[gzhpcu]

I would add that it is also important to keep your head stable during the entire toss, and it helps to look up at the contact point prior to initiating the toss.

[tennis_chiro]

Your thoughts on this video article everyone? Is it right, wrong...incomplete. How do you interpret this advice:

http://issues.tennistuesday.net/03-31-2015/p/8

I hate it!

don

[don_budge]

John Evert…"Very Good!"

Your thoughts on this video article everyone? Is it right, wrong...incomplete. How do you interpret this advice:

http://issues.tennistuesday.net/03-31-2015/p/8

At the end John says, "very good!". I give it a very good as well. The good parts are tossing at the swing (a Tilden fundamental) and the bit about the "shoulder sensation". Definitely toss to the swing. A good toss will encourage a good swing…that's for sure.

I can see eliminating some hand motion downward when learning…but after that it is anything goes. Whatever you are comfortable with.

I am all for anything that takes the hands out of the deal and I had never thought about the tossing motion. But everything…every swing is more shoulders than hands. Although the hands do come in at the end and seal the deal. Shoulder sensation…then release the ball as high as you can in your hand.

I find myself synching my serve now on my setup, methodical backswing into Rick Macci's probation position (elbow, shoulder, shoulder), tilt and bend, leg drive and very specific target for my toss. I have been serving really well.

Curious as to tennis_chiro's objection. He seems pretty serious.

[stotty]

Ice cream, anyone?

I think the clip is pretty dire. If you are going to coach a small aspect like this, do it thoroughly. The incompleteness of it is very misleading in so many ways.

The principle problem for me is the tossing method itself. He makes it as if the player should have the palm and forehand supinated from the outset. To me this is wrong as the ice cream cone way of initiating the toss is way better as it prevents (makes less likely) the elbow joint and wrist joint breaking and playing havoc with the accuracy of the toss. The way he is advocating (or appears to be) will likely peel the shoulder open too early because the open palm and forearm are actually working at odds with the rest of the body. It's just all wrong.

I think when you teach something like this you have to take it from the top. By that I mean how it is synched with the rest of the serve and how a rotary toss will serve most players best, etc. A coach will never have a better chance to get a player to have a synched serve than at the very start of the motion.

[klacr]

It's sad how far a major american tennis magazine has fallen so far in its instructional articles. This one by John Evert is actually fair compared to many that are featured. A once proud publication struggling with effective, relevant and meaningful instruction. Tennis magazine has some great writers on staff when it comes to feature articles, but I wish they went outside the "inner circle" and gave exposure to some other knowledgeable coaches working in the trenches that could provide great instruction. And yes, It helps when Chris Evert (John's Sister) is a business partner in the publication. Nepotism never hurt anyone.

This article does touch on something I've always felt was important and don_budge mentioned as well. Tossing the ball to your swing, not the other way around. Serving problems are usually tossing/rhythm problems.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[tennis_chiro]

...
Curious as to tennis_chiro's objection. He seems pretty serious.

Why do I feel so disappointed in this piece on the toss? Stotty got to it pretty well, but I'll just enumerate a couple of points to start with.
Brent Abel does a wonderful job of explaining the preferred toss position as passed on to him by legendary teacher, Tom Stowe. Stowe made his reputation teaching a redhead from Northern California to play in the thirties. We see his name almost daily here in the Forum. He was also the mentor for Larry Stefanki who had success as a coach in recent years with Andy Roddick, Francisco Gonzales and Marcelo Rios.

Here's Brent Abel's piece on the toss:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8kynEzufNE

I don't do everything the same way, but I really like the detail about the position of the hand and the advantage of eliminating the variability created by involving/allowing elbow and wrist joint flexion/extension. By putting the hand in a position where the back of the hand and palm are virtually vertical, you can eliminate that flexion/extension variable, not to mention the aspect of rolling off the fingers. I like the image of holding the ball in an ice cream cone (or a jigger glass for your adults).

Furthermore, the detail about the effort to lift the ball with the front shoulder extending upward is critical. As you lift the front shoulder, you automatically drop the rear shoulder, at least relatively, creating a natural coil.
I also feel strongly, and this may just be my own bias, that the simplest way to start someone out is the best way to start and the synchronised down together - up together motion best evokes the necessary simplicity. Whether you do an abbreviated motion like Gonzales or a full motion like Sampras, the simplest motion is to have the hands go down and up together. (Please note that Sampras's hands appear to be at different levels, but when you look at them in the framework of the angle of the shoulders/clavicles, they are at essentially the same level.) There is nothing wrong with the staggered service rhythm, but it is not the simplest way to start someone out and it is actually a much more complicated service motion/rhythm than the classic down together/up together motion that was almost universally taught until the 70's.

Taking this train of thought, simplicity that is, I want the toss to be as repeatable as possible. When you start to abbreviate the movement of the tossing hand, you are prone to develop a service rhythm that can easily break down under pressure. The longer, fuller tossing motion linked with the rocking motion of the weight transfer (whether it be front to back to front like Gonzales or Krajicek or a simple back to front like Sampras) is much more likely to be consistent. Check the motions of most great servers and I think you will find most are in line with my proposition here. Certainly, there are many exceptions. The human machine can get away with a lot, but in seems simpler and more repeatable to me. In this case, a shorter motion is not better. The best tosses do not appear to be tossed at all; in fact, the ball seems to just leave of its own accord as it achieves "exit velocity"; there should not be any sudden or jerky motion to propel the ball at the last minute.

In any case, I want to see the tossing hand descend fully and then make a smooth, unrushed motion upward allowing the ball to leave "when it feels like it".

Also, the tossing hand should not go further back than the inside of the front thigh; I would prefer to see it just come down to the outside of the front thigh. (I make my students touch the left thigh in the toss and catch drill on both the forward and reverse retracing parts of the motion.)

So two counts of why I hate Evert's article.

Third, coming back again to the rocking action, I think the link between the toss and the weight-transfer/rock must be the foundation of the service rhythm and the weight must be going forward as the ball is tossed. If you toss the ball and hold too much of the weight towards the rear foot, as many modern servers do in the platform stance, you violate the fundamental principle I am putting forward here. Those servers may be able to push a little more off the rear foot, but the loss in consistency because of the disconnect between the toss and the rock/weight-transfer does irreparable harm to the consistency and repeatability and accuracy of the service; perhaps you can hit the ball a little harder occasionally with the platform push from a more medial weight position at the end of the toss (something of which I am entirely unconvinced and actually do not believe is true), but the loss of service efficiency is just not worth it. To me, if you don't have that solid link between the forward weight transfer and the actual toss of the ball, by my definition, you have no rhythm to your serve that will hold up late in a match under pressure and fatigue.

Fourth, JY in Tennisplayer.net has made it abundantly clear that the vast majority of servers (talking righties here) swing the left hand out to the right to help coil the shoulders in preparation for the serve and the toss moves very slightly from right to left as it leaves the server's hand so that the ball can be hit basically in line with the front foot (mid-foot) and not off to the right as many of us were taught 40 years ago. Fortunately, only in this case, we didn't have video to try to correct what we ultimately learned to do correctly inspite of what we were told. But I gave a lot of lessons in my twenties where I told my students to hit the serve with the racket extended as vertical as possible and slightly to the right off my right shoulder. Now we know better, and so should John Evert. I didn't see anything in this piece about the shoulders moving to the right as the tossing hand goes out to the right and comes back to the left as it releases the ball. Perhaps he had been watching Patrick Rafter's serving course. Love Patrick, but I hated that one too. When I have students do my toss and catch drill, basically repeating the tossing motion in forward and reverse in repeatable rhythm, the ball is released or rather achieves exit velocity and leaves the hand slightly before the hand gets to full extension as it is still moving slightly right to left; that person then leaves their hand fully extended and somewhat more to the left than that release point and they can catch the ball as it continues its move slightly to the left and then descends in their hand. They should be able to do this with their eyes closed.

continued below

[tennis_chiro]

continued from above post

As to the aspect of hitting the toss or tossing to the serve:
You should have a clear idea of where you want to toss the ball, but the service motion is not an automatic whirlwind you are trying to throw a toss into to catch at the right time. It may seem that way when you try to execute a Roscoe Tanner or Goran Ivanisevic type motion and catch the ball at the very top of the toss before it descends; but that's not the reality. The reality is toss it, see it, hit what you see. It takes about .1 seconds for that last explosive move of the racket up to the contact point. I like to see the ball hit within a few inches of the top of the toss, but I rarely get that from my students; usually more like a foot below the top. And a lot of very good serves allow the ball to drop as much as two feet from the apex of the toss.

How long does it take for the ball to drop that 2'? In a quarter of a second, the ball has accelerated to 8 ft/sec and has averaged 4 ft per second. So it has only dropped one foot in that first quarter of a second. In the next 1/8th of a second, it will average 10 ft/sec and drop another 15 inches. I don't want to crank out the actual math to figure out how long it takes to drop 2 feet, but it is between 5/16 and 3/8 of a second. I prefer to meet the ball within 6" of the apex of the toss because the ball is still dropping only an inch or two in the time it takes me to swing up that last tenth of a second; i.e. the ball is effectively standing still in the air and I will be within one or two inches maximum of my intended sweetspot on the racket. Ideally, elite players meet the ball in a scatter pattern of little more than an inch diameter on their first serves; I imagine it is somewhat greater on the second serve.

Some quick calculations. Remember the ball's velocity at the apex of the toss is zero vertically and very small laterally (or should be). Gravity accelerates the ball downward at 32 ft/sec/sec. Actual velocity is 32 ft/sec/sec x the time in seconds. Actual distance is one half of initial plus terminal velocity times the time in seconds :

In 1/8th second, ball reaches 4 fps(4.8 inches per tenth of a second) and has dropped 3 inches (One half of initial plus terminal velocity times time = (0+4)/2 x1/8 x 12in/ft).

In 3/16th second, ball reaches 6 fps(7.2 inches per tenth of a second) and has dropped 6.75 inches (=3 x 3/16 x 12 ).

In 1/4 second, ball reaches 8 fps(9.6 inches per tenth of a second) and has dropped 12 inches.

At 5/16 second, ball reaches 10 fps(12 inches per tenth of a second) and has dropped 18.25 inches.

At 3/8 second, ball reaches 12 fps(14.4 inches per tenth of a second) and has dropped 27 inches.

That speed per tenth of a second at contact is important because that is how much the ball is moving in the time I am swinging up at the ball from the power drop position.

When you hit the ball within 3" of the top of the toss, it is virtually standing still and you should have no trouble hitting the ball within 1.5 inches of your sweet spot on your strings. The ball only moves 3 inches while you are swinging up from the power drop. When you let the ball drop two feet, it is moving over a foot in the last tenth of a second before impact and it is a much more challenging proposition to catch the ball close to the center of the sweetspot on your strings.

So I say have a good idea of where you want to toss the ball. If the toss is no good, don't hit it. But toss it, see it pause at the top of the toss and hit what you see. Don't try to throw the toss into the automatically firing whirlagig that is swinging around attached to your shoulder. The correct toss and rhythm should put you in a position when you complete the toss that you can relax somewhere near the trophy position as you let the racket drop to the power drop position while the ball completes its flight to the apex of its trajectory and when you see the ball pause at the right spot, hit it while it is virtually hanging there.

In other words, Toss It, See what you toss and Hit what you see.

To me that is a little different from tossing to your swing. Your body will figure out with a little practice how to adjust its position so that it meets the ball at as full an extension as possible while generating enough internal shoulder rotation and meeting the ball in the sweet spot and everything else; it's smarter than you are!

Well, perhaps that gives you an idea of why I hated the piece.

For full disclosure, I played against John Evert in a pro-am round robin at the Meadow Club in Southampton in the late 70's. I was a recently retired wanna-be tennis pro who was trying to become a stockbroker. He was the hotshot, I think from Vanderbilt, brought in by the American Express heir who was a pretty good player by club standards. And I was playing with my sponsor (on the tour and in Wall Street) and there was a certain amount of vitriol there. And I'm pretty sure we lost that match. I wasn't impressed. He spent a lot of years as an agent. Then he took over running his sister's academy. I'm still not impressed.a

don

[don_budge]

"Sometimes you just don't like a guy…" The Deuce.

Curious as to tennis_chiro's objection. He seems pretty serious.

To me that is a little different from tossing to your swing.

Well, perhaps that gives you an idea of why I hated the piece.

For full disclosure…

don

Well…that is certainly a lot of numbers and as usual your math is a little sketchy. I never did see tennis as an exact science…not in this world anyways. But I get your point…and your point is well taken.

But perhaps the little bit of full disclosure speaks in larger volumes than the math. You know…once Henry Ford II once said about Lee Iacocca…"sometimes you just don't like a guy." And that's ok.

[tennis_chiro]

... You know…once Henry Ford II once said about Lee Iacocca…"sometimes you just don't like a guy." And that's ok.

Henry Ford II was the father in law of the guy who sponsored me with whom I was playing against Evert at the Meadow Club!

don

[tennis_chiro]

Well…that is certainly a lot of numbers and as usual your math is a little sketchy. I never did see tennis as an exact science…not in this world anyways. But I get your point…and your point is well taken.

...:

My argument may be deemed "sketchy", but there is nothing sketchy about those numbers. They are simple arithmetic around the fact that gravity accelerates the ball downward at 32 ft/sec/sec.

don

[don_budge]

The Degree of Separation...

Henry Ford II was the father in law of the guy who sponsored me with whom I was playing against Evert at the Meadow Club!

don

…and bottle is living in "The Deuce's" old neighbourhood. We're all within x degrees of separation. You gotta be careful these days! Great stuff…tennis_chiro!

[stotty]

In other words, Toss It, See what you toss and Hit what you see.

To me that is a little different from tossing to your swing. Your body will figure out with a little practice how to adjust its position so that it meets the ball at as full an extension as possible while generating enough internal shoulder rotation and meeting the ball in the sweet spot and everything else; it's smarter than you are!

Within reason this is much how I see it. I call it micro adjusting. But where I may differ from you (or maybe not) is on apex servers. It's tough to hit on the apex because the window for micro adjusting becomes so tiny. It takes split second timing to hit on the apex, and if you're having an off day you're in trouble. The toss has to be high enough to allow room for the "unconscious" micro adjusting that goes on in a serve. After all, no one can truly serve blindfolded and get it in time and time again...if you get my point.

[tennis_chiro]

Within reason this is much how I see it. I call it micro adjusting. But where I may differ from you (or maybe not) is on apex servers. It's tough to hit on the apex because the window for micro adjusting becomes so tiny. It takes split second timing to hit on the apex, and if you're having an off day you're in trouble. The toss has to be high enough to allow room for the "unconscious" micro adjusting that goes on in a serve. After all, no one can truly serve blindfolded and get it in time and time again...if you get my point.

I am not advocating hitting the ball at the actual apex, but if you are ready to strike at the ball as the ball reaches that apex, you effectively have about an eighth of a second to hit the ball while it is still effectively standing still or getting to exactly the spot you want. After the ball drops 2 feet, it's moving pretty fast.

don

[klacr]

As to the aspect of hitting the toss or tossing to the serve:
You should have a clear idea of where you want to toss the ball, but the service motion is not an automatic whirlwind you are trying to throw a toss into to catch at the right time. It may seem that way when you try to execute a Roscoe Tanner or Goran Ivanisevic type motion and catch the ball at the very top of the toss before it descends; but that's not the reality. The reality is toss it, see it, hit what you see. It takes about .1 seconds for that last explosive move of the racket up to the contact point. I like to see the ball hit within a few inches of the top of the toss, but I rarely get that from my students; usually more like a foot below the top. And a lot of very good serves allow the ball to drop as much as two feet from the apex of the toss...

...For full disclosure, I played against John Evert in a pro-am round robin at the Meadow Club in Southampton in the late 70's. I was a recently retired wanna-be tennis pro who was trying to become a stockbroker. He was the hotshot, I think from Vanderbilt, brought in by the American Express heir who was a pretty good player by club standards. And I was playing with my sponsor (on the tour and in Wall Street) and there was a certain amount of vitriol there. And I'm pretty sure we lost that match. I wasn't impressed. He spent a lot of years as an agent. Then he took over running his sister's academy. I'm still not impressed.a

don

The low toss quick motion is definitely not what it seems to be. My motion was compared to Tanner and Ivaniesevic in the infamous "klacr strokes" thread but to be honest, it doesn't seem or feel that way to me.

Good memory tennis_chiro! John Evert did play at Vanderbilt. He also was an agent for IMG and one of his first clients was Jennifer Capriati. Also happened to be her very first agent. He works at the Evert academy here in Boca Raton. 8 minute straight shot down the road from my club. They share the courts with the USTA training center. It's also where I saw Wawrinka practice.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton