Return of Serve

[lobndropshot]

I am guilty as charged. I hardly ever practice my return of serve and as a result I am stuck in a deep slump.

In the past I mostly played singles and got away with chipping 85% of my returns back. This is good and bad because I am in a lot of points from the get go. However,I am giving up opportunities to start return point with an advantage.

Here is the question I am asking: Is it better to return more aggressively, make more errors, and have an advantage in more points, or is it okay being in a lot of points either in a neutral/ weaker position?

Thoughts Please!

I hope to post a video

[GeoffWilliams]

Aggressive returning results in more breaks: Sharascreecha, Serena, etc. make huge amounts of return errors, yet break more often. Fed chips safely, and breaks less often than any top player.

[stotty]

Neutral works best from Stotty

Here is the question I am asking: Is it better to return more aggressively, make more errors, and have an advantage in more points, or is it okay being in a lot of points either in a neutral/ weaker position?

Thoughts Please!

I hope to post a video

A video would be great.

It's probably not acceptable for most of us to start a rally from a weaker position if it can be avoided. Neutral is perfectly acceptable against a good server, and for most of us, a good plan. I always return neutral because I am not great off the ground and I like to return balls in deep and work things out from there. It's just the way my mind works. If a player has the guns, then aggression is a great option as it can put you in the ascendency as the rally starts. But I just wonder how many amateurs can really do this consistently enough. It depends on your level of play I guess. I think players have to be realistic and honest about their own games and work out a plan from there.

I leave you with an excerpt from a book by Pancho Gonzales:

Too many players on all levels are unrealistic about their own games. Before working out an elaborate tactical plan relative to your opponent's game, analyze your own game in order to cover up or correct weaknesses and to display your full strength.

[lobndropshot]

Blueprint for return of serve

It comes down to blueprints.

On all other strokes, I have spent a substantial amount of the time practicing them I have a clear mental model to use as a reference point on off days. This is not true on my return of serve. While I am able to chip most serves and keep the ball fairly neutral I don't have the blueprint for the drive return or the looping return. Even on my chip I play the shot with feel so I don't have a clear image of why I missed or made a given shot.

I think it is the one part of my game that is holding me back.

Therefore, I need to move forward toward finding a model to design my return after. Here are some facts about my game:
- I have an eastern forehand
- I have a one handed back hand
- I am 5'10"
- I have difficulty with Federer's take back on the forehand. I can't manage his high tip take back (HTTB)

I am thinking Tim Henman as a model.

[klacr]

Here's something that you may want to try...

2 drills that could help.

http://www.edgargiffenig.com/#!A-Cou...f215f35a313acc

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[lobndropshot]

very cool I will try that

[lobndropshot]

Making chages: when making improvments doesn't equal playing improvments

I feel like my study of the return is improving my return. However, improvement doesn't always mean in. I have plans in the works to get out and video my returns.

Yesterday I played a doubles match. The return in doubles is key. Way more important than the serve, granted your serve is solid, and much more important then the first volley. In fact, I would bet that a team with solid returns and serves in which they have a slight advantage on there serve and they neutral on the their returns will beat most teams playing any system. The pressure you can apply to the other team with those two shots is incredible.

I wonder if there are any technical differences in the doubles return?

[gzhpcu]

I wonder if there are any technical differences in the doubles return?

Just that you either return cross or hit a lob over the net player?

[lobndropshot]

Yes, do those options result in different preferences among doubles players?

[klacr]

Doubles returns can be a bit more specific and precise due to the fact that there is usually a net player down the line from you, or in the case of the "I" formation down the middle.

Your returns in doubles are often held more accountable as you are trying to hit a good return either at feet of rushing server or a lob over the net player's head and not to leave your partner susceptible to getting killed at net. A little off your mark on any of these returns and it's easy pickings for the serving team.

In singles, a return down the line or crosscourt will certainly have a reaction from your opponent however may be not as troublesome or severe as what could happen with an active net player.


Funny how we talk about great returners in tennis. Agassi, Djokovic, Murray. Yet, often forgotten about and IMHO, one of the best returners on tour is Mike Bryan of the Bryan Brothers. If you watch their matches, it is pretty incredible just how accurate he is. Having seen them practice live many times before, he can actually practice specific locations of his return.

Good doubles players know and understand the four points of a net player's body. Right shoulder, right hip, left shoulder, left hip. If going after the net player, Mike Bryan focuses on one of these points, assuming it is a right handed player, their weakest shot is usually a ball to their right hip as it's tough to hit that quick volley with a forehand and often they slide across to block with a backhand and can get them handcuffed.

Looking at those four points, The backhand volley to me takes greater importance than the forehand volley, simply for the fact that the backhand volley can cover 3 of the four key points. The only natural and comfortable shot for the forehand volley is the right shoulder since it's a routine volley. But the backhand volley can cover the left shoulder and hip as well as the right hip as the elbow is capable of pulling across. Try hitting a forehand volley off your non-dominant hip and you'll see what I mean.

A little off your original topic and question but I appreciate you asking about a not so practiced shot such as a return, it's only fair to give you an example of a great returner (Mike Bryan) and what he does do with it in doubles.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[bottle]

- I have difficulty with Federer's take back on the forehand. I can't manage his high tip take back (HTTB)

I am astounded by the honesty in this statement. This is the first time since the emergence of Roger Federer on the international scene that anyone who adopted the ATP3 Federfore did not claim immediate and automatic entrance into The Elysian Fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium). TWELFTH NIGHT: Act 1, Scene 2: "My brother he is in Elysium."

Well, maybe it was just the silence of the lambs, I mean the silence of a thousand different tennis players that was the tip-off.

While discussing the ATP3 and even offering startling perceptions about it, they never reported back on how the ATP3 worked out for them farther down the road.

Me, I loved mine, but was on the end of a very dark omen in Freeport, Maine. While practicing my ATP3 from self-feed, I hit one over the fence into the woods at Freeport High School. Just then the boys high school tennis team walked onto the courts and started to hit the rest of my balls into the woods before I stopped them (with bluster).

I went home with my balls intact to my temporary home (hmm, nice girl) but the omen or curse shortly thereafter began to take effect.

It wasn't that I couldn't hit my ATP3 in singles matches in Maine and North Carolina. I could hit it high and deep. It's just that it dawdled a bit in mid-air.

After a decade or two, though, it got good, perhaps because I was developing my McEnrueful and therefore paid it less attention.

There are a few items of note however that possibly were part of the improvement, which may or may not apply, lobanddropshot, to your individual case.

First, it is real easy to use Federer's take back on the forehand, probably easier than not to use it. Just separate the hands sooner than most tennis players do and flip the racket back on a straight line close to the side of your head while remaining utterly relaxed and even mechanical about this. The key lies in the word "flip" which is wrongly assigned to the lower part of the shot right after the dogpat. Take "flip" and bring it up top. Assign the word "mondo" to the lower phenomenon. Both words by the way came to me from the same source. It is best to have maximum fun with words. Remember, one word is worth a thousand pictures.

Regardless of what one thinks about that, real feel starts after the over-the-top flip which I like to say goes straight back. I guess if you were a ghost of yourself kneeling to the side of yourself and carefully studying yourself you would see some kind of overhead circle, a coin on edge, but stick with the straight back idea-- there is a reason.

That would be the forward swing which possibly is best described as a horizontal circle far from the core for contact both way out front and considerably to the right.

To summarize: Straight back take back, circular or roundabout swing forward.
There was a lot of discussion, several months of it in this forum, on this out right contact point. The discussion was dominated by a teaching pro named Carerra Kent or Kent Carrera or Clark Kent, one of those three. He took a lot of abuse and left the forum and never came back (I can think of others like that-- O, where are you Ochi. At least I can somewhat remember the Carrerra name. Remembering names and the order and spelling of names is hard once someone leaves. How transient we all are. But Carerra marble from Italy lasts).

And Carerra Kent, despite the abuse, was absolutely right about Roger Federer's separation out to the right. So make sure to do that, I would say. Also, do not be inveigled by photos of Roger in which he seems to be spearing with the racket handle for a long time. Not a long time-- a micro-instant in any clip where the spearing happens. The racket tip starts its upward wipe immediately from the mondo.

The other technical idea that personally helped me was to buy time with sky flip to spend on a dogpat averaging four feet in depth behind one and ending only when racket tip is slanted down at the court.

Macci's term "dogpat" is a great one. Ladypro, who sadly disappeared like Ochi, liked my term "descending milkweed" and used it on an entire tennis team. Roger's racket goes down slowly con brio. It is the only slow thing in his forehand (http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...1%20500fps.mp4).

[bottle]

Counterclockwise Twirl

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_Court_Level_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Arm_Action&stroke=FH%20InsideOut%20ArmAction%20CourtLevelRear1%20500fps.mp4

Note the 360-degree whirl of the racket as Roger gets ready for the next shot. Should we try that?

[bottle]

The Best I've Ever Read on Service Returns

That would be in the several tennis books of John M. Barnaby, one of my favorite writers whether the subject is tennis or anything else.

His idea: Have a whole list of different replies to try. Then, if you are being overwhelmed by somebody's serve, go right down the list until something works.

His view: Service return is the place in tennis where the words "creativeness" and "variety" best apply.

[lobndropshot]

My list for return of serve when I am having difficulty getting the serve back.

1. Back up
2. Move in
3. Step to the left
4. Step to the right
5. Talk to the guy about what an amazing serve he has
6. Try different combinations of steps 1-4
7. pretend that my feet have HD-ADD

[bottle]

# 5 could be good for a double-fault or two.