Please Help with Serve Motion

[tennis_chiro]

So I've been re-reading all the posts about my motion and was finally able to realize what tennis chiro was talking about with his drills to get deeper racquet drop. I made a quick video doing some shadow swings and wanted to see if you guys think that the racquet drop looks better.

http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/NUdxSK5T?e=1969494

The first two swings were my old swing, and the last 3 were me trying to get a feel for getting the power drop. I'm not focusing much on contact point or any tilts with my body. So just from a racquet drop perspective I would like to know if that's is what I'm looking for here. Please let me know what you think and thanks again for the input.

Note: I haven't tried the Gonzales motion yet, but will try in a few days.

Of course you are not actually hitting the ball, but I thought it looked a lot better and a lot deeper in the drop.

don

[markb]

Of course you are not actually hitting the ball, but I thought it looked a lot better and a lot deeper in the drop.

don

Thank you very much I will continue at syncing my body up to this motion. Hopefully will be able to produce some great results. Will update you with actual serve video and progress.

[stotty]

Of course you are not actually hitting the ball, but I thought it looked a lot better and a lot deeper in the drop.

don

I'll second that. It's so much easier to pull the right shoulder back a little further with a classic motion making a decent racket drop easier to achieve. I think one of the biggest pitfalls for most players who opt for an abbreviated swing is the risk of a more shallow drop.

The abbreviated motion has two things going for it for me: simplicity if done right, and an explosive feel (although I am not sure if this is illusionary).

Can't wait to see the next line of videos from markb.

[don_budge]

Hesitation…or "Degree of Separation"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vc3_pUFSgI

At 9.22 Rick queries...

“Perfect example, tell me which one is a perfect stroke. Player A (Rick initiates leg drive after racquet has fallen behind him)...or Player B (initiates leg drive as his racquet is falling). A lot of people like the Player A because cosmetically it was smoother, it was relaxed. It looked good. My racquet was down my back all the way when my legs started driving. On the second one I built in a hesitation."

"It was interesting...when you have a hesitation...I’m getting into the correction now. You can’t just say, “Hey Mac, you’re into your back too soon. Good luck buddy...it ain’t gonna work.” How do we correct it? Here’s what we do...we put you on probation. Ok...I know some of guys have been there too. We put you on probation. We start you from this position. From this position. Why? I want you to get your house in order...alright, you gotta get your act together. I can’t just tell you, “slow the racquet down”...”you are in too soon...good luck”. It’s not going to work."

"Start your kids from here. Ninety degrees. I little tilt. Like a little (inaudible) of the racquet.like this. We are going to toss, bend and tilt. All that I want them to do is to drive the legs first."


Interesting comment indeed. Being on probation in this position might sort of mean where the backswing ends and where the forward motion with the leg drive begins. I sometimes refer to the point where the backswing ends and the forward motion begins as being “betwixt and between”. Sort of like twilight. On probation. Interesting fellow Rick Macci. He turns it into a performance...which is, of course, what it is. The difference between him and an actual snake oil salesman...he actually knows what he is talking about.

While I don't think that Rick Macci is necessarily promoting markb's type of service motion…he is making a case for practicing synchronizing the leg drive initiating the forward motion from markb's similar position.

Good find stroke. I had sort of focused on the "elbow, shoulder, shoulder" but this is just as monumental.

Next…no maybes. Another excellent video suited to our purpose here with markb's motion.

Classic take back:
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/dTz2J17a?e=1936054 Rear
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/hMi5psW6?e=1936049 Side
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/p6hlSFbF?e=1936102 Diagonal Side

I'm going out on a limb here…markb. I'm going to say that there is nothing fundamentally "wrong" with your motion. All in all…it is one fine motion. I was particularly impressed with the rear views in that your ability to aim is quite extraordinary and this is what I would build upon.

It is all about rhythm and timing in the end when it comes to great serving motions and in your case it is no different. You feel that you can "explode" on the ball best from your abbreviated motion and I believe the reason is because you initiate your leg drive and torso rotation with better timing. With your classic delivery you are just a bit later in doing so and one reason appears to be that your backswing morphs directly into your forward motion.

In the video that I posted with the Rick Macci performance he talks about hesitation. I call it a degree of separation. Separation between the backswing and forward swing. You don't appear to have this degree of separation in your "classic swing" whereas it is very pronounced in your "abbreviated motion". I believe that this accounts for the difference in explosive feel that you note.

Think of your swing as a roller coaster ride. As the backswing is nearing the top of the hill it is going to come to a virtual stop…or hesitation…or degree of separation...before it goes plummeting down the steep hill and into the loop at free fall speed.

Your classic motion is actually very good…I want to say exemplary. It is only a little fine tuning in the rhythm and the timing. Once you feel that hesitation in your swing at the top of the backswing that is the time to drive and turn and swing. All in one relaxed motion. Effortless power. It is only in the timing of the thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxcMr1Ya5w0

I referenced this video in the "Project J" thread as well. Since you seem to have a really good knack for aiming…this is what I would build my motion around and I think that your timing and rhythm issues will iron themselves out without too many overt changes in your overall swing.

Start to concentrate on spinning the ball and working the ball to the different targets. In this way your swing will evolve through meaningful practice instead of firing 1,000,000's of balls thoughtlessly. It reminds me of golfers that go out and fire bucket after bucket down the range willy nilly. The correct way to practice is to concentrate on your set up, your free swinging and relaxed motion to combine into a meaningfully placed serve with the appropriate spin and action…all adding up to your tactical intentions.

Again…with your height and no lack of power it is time for you to gain the advantage in terms of thoughtful placement and tactical serving. Your motion is really a very good one…particularly the classic style…and you have only to thoughtfully reevaluate your method of practice to make it optimally more meaningful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vc3_pUFSgI

Consider the Rick Macci video as well. You will see that you have many of the elements that comprise a great serve…but without the "perfect" transition timing between your backswing and forwards swing you will be losing in what you perceive to be "explosiveness". Slow down the backswing just a tad so that you will come out of your bend with maximum energy…merely because you attain a degree of separation at the apex of your backswing. Then drive with the legs…turn with the shoulders…throw with the arm.

[don_budge]

"Degree of Separation"…the charm of Great Servers

Check out the "degree of separation" in Roger Federer's serve.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_serve/rf_1st_serve/rf_1st_serve.html?RF1stSDeuceCourtLevelRear1.mov

Check out the "degree of separation" in Pete Sampras's serve.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_1st_serve/ps_1st_serve.html?PS1stSAdCourtLevelRear1.mov

Check out the "degree of separation" in Tim Henman's serve.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/timhenman/th_serve/th_1st_serve/th_1st_serve.html?TH1stSDeuceSide3.mov

One thing that these server's have in common is a slow and rhythmic backswing. You may just be a tad quick on the trigger.

[gzhpcu]

So I've been re-reading all the posts about my motion and was finally able to realize what tennis chiro was talking about with his drills to get deeper racquet drop. I made a quick video doing some shadow swings and wanted to see if you guys think that the racquet drop looks better.

http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/NUdxSK5T?e=1969494

The first two swings were my old swing, and the last 3 were me trying to get a feel for getting the power drop. I'm not focusing much on contact point or any tilts with my body. So just from a racquet drop perspective I would like to know if that's is what I'm looking for here. Please let me know what you think and thanks again for the input.

Note: I haven't tried the Gonzales motion yet, but will try in a few days.

You need to actually hit the ball to see if it works. The mind/body works in strange ways. You might do the motion correctly without tossing/hitting the ball, and then, when you actually do it, the body reverts to the old motion (I know, this happens to me all the time...)

[don_budge]

The Degree of Separation…create with a little dip ala McEnroe

Classic take back:
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/dTz2J17a?e=1936054 Rear
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/hMi5psW6?e=1936049 Side
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/p6hlSFbF?e=1936102 Diagonal Side

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/modern_legends/johnmcenroe/mac_serve/mac_1st_serve/mac_1st_serve.html?Mac1stSDeuceCourtLevelRear1.mov

So the more that I look at these three examples of your service motion…the more that I like it overall. But as I have discussed…the one key missing element is this "degree of separation"…which you have in abundance in your abbreviated motion. So the question is why is it missing?

The more obvious reason to me is that the backswing is a bit quick…so I ask myself why is that quick? I look at your tossing motion and that is a very quick motion with very little downward motion. Take a look at the John McEnroe tossing motion and how he makes a noticeable dip with his tossing hand that synchs with his backswing. There is the little motion that will install the degree of separation.

You toss the ball absolutely beautifully and put it right where you racquet head is passing. This is why I wanted to see where you were tossing the ball. So it isn't the height of the toss that causes the imperfection in the rhythm or timing…moreso it is in the manner or the motion of your tossing hand. By creating just a bit more time in your tossing mechanism you will be required to create just a bit more time in your swinging mechanism. Notice that you use virtually the same tossing motion in your abbreviated swing as you do in your classic swing. Since you are adding motion to your classic swing in the backswing it makes sense to add a bit of motion to your tossing mechanism.

http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/wmBfYhri?e=1936053#

With a little bit of "dipping" ala McEnroe you will create this sense of rhythmic motion and all of your problems will be solved. At the same time that you are dipping you are creating the opportunity to lift as high as you can to eek out as much height out of your 5' 7" frame…an added benefit. Added leg drive. You'll be serving "tall"…which you already do very nicely.

It's all good buddy…just a little tweak and some tactical thoughts and practice. I like the classic motion the best…no surprise to anyone here on the forum.

A couple of thoughts...

[markb]

Update on the Motion

Here are the updates guys on the new motion. I think I have made a distinct progress with getting a much deeper racquet head drop. Currently working on syncing everything up together to see how much more I can get out of my serve. Also syncing it up with kick serve is a bit harder, so that's another thing that is on my list to do.

Here are the vids, I combined both classic and abbreviated take backs in one of the videos just to see which one gets bigger drops.

http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/SOdr0XRC?e=2120492 side
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/2HpJbGRy?e=2120486 side classic
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/QfmCbEAt?e=2120488 rear both

Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks again for all the feedback guys, wouldn't be where I am right now without it.

[gzhpcu]

Looks very nice. I personally prefer classic as it looks smoother and less rushed...

[klacr]

Here are the updates guys on the new motion. I think I have made a distinct progress with getting a much deeper racquet head drop. Currently working on syncing everything up together to see how much more I can get out of my serve. Also syncing it up with kick serve is a bit harder, so that's another thing that is on my list to do.

Here are the vids, I combined both classic and abbreviated take backs in one of the videos just to see which one gets bigger drops.

http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/SOdr0XRC?e=2120492 side
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/2HpJbGRy?e=2120486 side classic
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/QfmCbEAt?e=2120488 rear both

Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks again for all the feedback guys, wouldn't be where I am right now without it.

Well done markb. Improvement but always room for more right? never stop.
Here's an important question...how does your arm feel? Still pain?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

The classic motion looks much better, certainly more pleasing to the eye. I still think it may lack a bit of what don_budge prescribes in post #52. The swing is still a little overly simple and quick. I would have a go at creating a bit more dip and see how it looks/works. After all, it would be such a simple thing to try and comes with no risk of making anything worse.

And, hey, what's the rush? You serve like you just want to get rid of the ball and barely spend a moment to set up. Is the camera on a timer or something or do you always prepare at breakneck speed?!

But, overall, I am favourably impressed...well done. I will study it further.

[markb]

The classic motion looks much better, certainly more pleasing to the eye. I still think it may lack a bit of what don_budge prescribes in post #52. The swing is still a little overly simple and quick. I would have a go at creating a bit more dip and see how it looks/works. After all, it would be such a simple thing to try and comes with no risk of making anything worse.

And, hey, what's the rush? You serve like you just want to get rid of the ball and barely spend a moment to set up. Is the camera on a timer or something or do you always prepare at breakneck speed?!

But, overall, I am favorably impressed...well done. I will study it further.

I think the rush comes from my abbreviated motion and also gives me a feel like i'm a rubber band slingshot. Probably have a bit of Dolgopolov in me hahaha. Overall i just tend to hit better with a quicker motion, and it gives less time for opponent to read my serve. Arm doesn't hurt anymore, but I also haven't gone all out because my shoulder had slight soreness from over training few weeks ago. The best part about this motion is that my overheads improved dramatically as I was finally able to get better timing since somehow the racquet drop created better rhythm than my old motion. So killed 2 birds with 1 stone