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Originally posted by 10splayer
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I think 10splayer kind of nailed it here. I too think Brian(and Rick too based on Brian) do not think the backswing style or form is important at all. DB quoted Rick on their reasoning with this on probation serve technique they are recommending. -
Backswings…The Probation Serve Technique
Originally posted by 10splayer View Post10splayer…I find that stroke's response to your post is confusing. Can you clarify a bit? What exactly is "very, very important"? When you talk of a progression and you reference "brian/macci" what exactly are you referring to?Originally posted by stroke View Post
I don't think that ""momentum" into the downward trek" is all that terribly important…or wanted for that matter. I don't believe that Macci does either. In fact when he talks about the hesitation at the top of the back swing I think he, like me, feels that the "degree of separation" between the backswing and the forwards swing occurs because of a free backswing based on more gravity from a freely swinging racquet head as opposed to a "set" racquet head in the staggered style of serving. The decent into the downward trek is optimally one of free fall speed…or very nearly as possible so.
He is not advocating serving out of the "probation position" but is using this as a demonstrate-able exercise to develop the sense of timing between the legs and the forward swing.
I think that backswing style is ultimately important in the big and final analysis of a service motion and therefore the setup position is also very, very important as the video you posted seemed to suggest. The setup precludes the backswing which in turn precludes the forward swing. In this chain of events every part of the swing is dependent upon what happened before it.
stroke refers to this probation serve as a technique but to me it is only an exercise. Maybe you can clarify this misunderstanding.
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Service Motion Update!
Alright, so I have finally recorded the new motion videos. I did the figure 8s that tennis chiro suggested to create rhythm and racquet drop. I also focused a lot on shoulder tilt and leg drive timing. The serve now feels a lot better and much more effortless. Better news is that the arm feels a lot better. It still getting a little sore but after a lot more serves and the soreness if way less painful. I believe that this is still happening because I haven't let myself recover properly. I have been trying to work on the serve almost everyday where I sometimes would do over 500 serves in a day. I know I should rest but I just feel that I'm so close to getting it right that I can't stop. I believe that I was thinking of using the arm a lot in my old motion as opposed to just let it sling shot at the ball. What I imagine now is when I toss the ball that my upper body is a catapult that cranks back and then snaps into the ball. What also helped a lot is thinking about accelerating my right shoulder into the ball. I try to think about keeping my arm very loose so it just flies forward. I think today the serve felt that I at least matched or topped my 115 max serve
!!! Before I post the new motion I want to post my old original motion that I was able to hit at 115 mph with at maximum. I want you guys to see a serve progression and maybe you can pick up on something else from this video.
Note: At this point I couldn't figure out why I could hit 115mph just by throwing the ball forward and just thinking that I"m throwing my racquet; but not faster when I tried to use my legs. Then I started see how extremely low my elbow was at the trophy position ( I still don't know how I could swing from there), which made me do a lot of studying that eventually brought me here.
Now to the new motion.
I tried doing both an abbreviated motion and with a more classic take back. The classic feels much better than before, but I still don't feel that I can be as explosive as I am with an abbreviated motion. I also find it easier to create rhythm with an abbreviated motion ( I imagine that I'm a catapult when I tilt back).
Classic take back:
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/dTz2J17a?e=1936054 Rear
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/hMi5psW6?e=1936049 Side
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/p6hlSFbF?e=1936102 Diagonal Side
Abbreviated :
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/mpFzglEO?e=1936045 Rear (Felt the fastest I ever hit).
http://www.ubersense.com/video/view/wmBfYhri?e=1936053 Diagonal Side
Sorry I thought I made a side video of this but I guess I didn't.
Let me know what you guys think.
Note: I didn't record in 120 fps this time because it just takes a bit longer to import and mess around with. I like to use the app Ubersense as it allows me to do side by sides and slow motion recording just not at 120 fps. The links I sent you are from Ubersense site. If you get their app (which is free with no ads, I use it a lot for coaching and myself) you could then use the slow motion effects to see things frame by frame.
I also would like to thank everyone for helping me out right now. I think this is a really cool concept of a community as a whole helping or developing a player. Would be really cool to see down the road a high performance player being developed through this site with everyone as a collective group helping out. Probably could achieve some really great results.Comment
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500 serves a day explains why the bicep got hurt. Cut it down to 300 or less, or suffer the consequences of now and forever pain.Comment
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Just about every student I have ever had says they feel the abbreviated motion feels more explosive. Some even say it feels just as explosive serving from the trophy position with no wind up whatsoever. Many are therefore taken by the idea of an abbreviated motion. But there's a catch...for many who go that route...that will always raise it's head at some point.Originally posted by markb View Post
The catch is loss of rhythm. True rhythm that is. Rhythm can make a serve go better and better the deeper into a match you go. Explosive abbreviated motions tend to work the other way round. They often start off well but disappear the deeper into the match you go and at the times when needed most.
Strange you feel more rhythm with an abbreviated motion. Usually students just state it feels more explosive. Maybe that's because you have never found true rhythm with a classic motion. Or maybe you are one of those players an abbreviated motion really suits.
I am going to look more closely at your clips and chime in again. I will say one thing after just a brief look, you have a really fast arm, which you seem to retain whichever motion you use. That's a good quality.StottyComment
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Yeah I know I have been doing it too much, so I am taking a break now. I was doing 500 serves a day after I found out what the problem was. Before that I didn't practice serving all the time. The way I did 500 serves were just nice and easy just to synchronize body and also to create rhythm, I didn't try to go all out.Originally posted by GeoffWilliams View PostComment
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An observation...and a few quick questions
I find the kick back slightly odd. The right legs veers acutely off to the right...more than the pro's ever do.
Are you on a full continental grip or a weak forehand grip? Looks like the latter to me? You fingers seem very bunched. Do you have a large grip/handle?
I notice your classic stance is the same as your abbreviated stance, when it should be wider. Have you tried the wider stance? Abbreviated serves have narrow stances (Monfils, Roddick) whereas classic stances are wider.StottyComment
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The stances is actually the next thing that I wanted to work on and ask you guys. I feel that both my stances could be better because as you can see my right leg still flies to the right a bit, so I think I'm off balanced. Also, if you watch Roddick serve when he contacts the ball his body is flying forward. Where if you look at mine. I have my upper body and legs flying forward but my butt is lagging behind. I'm not sure why that is caused and if it makes me lose power, but I think it might have something to do with my right foot pushing off.Originally posted by licensedcoach View PostI find the kick back slightly odd. The right legs veers acutely off to the right...more than the pro's ever do.
Are you on a full continental grip or a weak forehand grip? Looks like the latter to me? You fingers seem very bunched. Do you have a large grip/handle?
I notice your classic stance is the same as your abbreviated stance, when it should be wider. Have you tried the wider stance? Abbreviated serves have narrow stances (Monfils, Roddick) whereas classic stances are wider.
As for grips, I use a 4 1/4 grip with overgrip. My index finger I would say is at 2.5 and heel pad at 1.5. What role would having more spacing between fingers do when holding the racquet?Comment
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This is a very interesting observation. This made me compare both my first video serves which were slow and the new motion that was fast. To me it looks like I'm also not fully horizontal unlike Roddick and Fed but to me it looks like I make up for it at contact point. To me it looks like I'm slightly over rotated my right shoulder to go more forward, which makes my left arm fling up really high up during follow through like Roddick's. If you look at Roger at contact pointOriginally posted by tennis_chiro View PostI was really hoping there would be a few more comments, especially in response to post 23-26. I was looking a little further at that idea of how critical the shoulder tilt is. We all know how terrific Sampras's shoulder over shoulder rotation was; but I'm convinced my student's serve has really improved and he has a much better action to his motion even though the shoulder tilt is much reduced.
So that got me to looking at the archive for degrees of shoulder tilt. But in a different way. Not just how much raw tilt was established at some point in the swing, but how much tilt was still left at the point in the swing when the tip of the racket head actually started to rise and accelerate towards impact. I only looked at a couple, but it is amazing to see how little shoulder tilt Rafa has left at the point where the racket head is rising, especially in comparison to some of the other servers. (Remember Rafa is a very strong 6' 1" man, yet rarely hits a serve in accordance with that strength and his innate athleticism.
Take a look and see what you think. By the time Rafa is going up to the ball in this clip, his shoulders are not even horizontal (the point in the clip where the racket head is just moving off the bottom of the video frame):
Compare Roddick's shoulder rotation from the same point in his motion. I think he gets more than a full 90 degrees from there out of his shoulders up to contact, but Rafa only gets about 75 degrees at most. I just wonder if that isn't significant. Rafa's position a little earlier in the swing looks great - nice shoulder tilt, but he's lost it by the time he starts to really accelerate up to contact.
don
you can see that his left shoulder is actually still in front of right and during follow through there is a point where the right shoulder is moving independently of the left. Now if you look at Roddick's contact point you can see the right shoulder is already ahead of the left and both shoulders are working as a unit.
Then I looked at Rafa and saw that he is even more behind than Federer, and like you said his shoulders are not horizontal at the racquet drop. His shoulders also do a similar thing to Fed's at the follow through. They don't seem to be working as a unit at one point.
So out of the 3 motions here I think Roddick gets the most rotation and probably the most momentum because the shoulders are working as a unit. That left arm I think is also very important at the start of the swing, because it creates all that rotational energy in the beginning and I think they mentioned this before that Roddick's arm start to move together during the swing. Just look at how low Andy's arm is already at the racquet drop compared to Fed.
I also would like to say that after watching the figure 8s drill and how you were physically turning the kids body to get him to rotate and get the racquet to the "highway path to the ball" was very helpful. This is why it actually started thinking about shooting my shoulder forward at the ball because when I did figure 8's I can feel the racquet rotate my shoulders more externally the more I focused on the shoulder and the racquet gets to the "highway point" much quicker.Comment
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I usually get students to spread their fingers a little more than you across the grip...with the forefinger pulling away that little more. I find it makes the grip more subtle and provides better feel. That said, McEnroe was a little bunched and he had more feel than just about anyone that ever played, so I feel unjustified to make it a hard and fast rule. I prefer to see the heel of the hand a little further round. My heel pad sits bang on bevel 1.Originally posted by markb View Post
I am not sure how relevant the kick back issue is. There are plenty of players who veer a fair bit to the left...just not as much as you. It varies with many players in relation where they are serving from and to. I just wonder if you are peeling your body open a little early and this is maybe is what causes it. It would be nice to compare it to Roddick and a few others to see how their's differ.
I don't want to get in too deep or be too prescriptive right now because there are a handful of posters on the forum who are biomechanically red hot when it comes figuring out serves. It would be interesting to see how they view your kick back and if it is relevant. It could be a characteristic you can happily get away with.
I really do like your serve. I prefer your classic motion to the abbreviated, but then I am biased towards classic motions. Ultimately it comes down to what feels best for you. My personal feeling is not to go to far away from your natural motion....after all, it's a pretty good serve already. It's a quick little motion you've got and I think it suits you well. An awful lot of players would be happy with your serve.
Speak soon...
StottyComment
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This is an awfully good post (and the post before it) from tennis_chiro, markb? Have you experimented with some of these suggestions? The rhythm suggestion...start higher like Gonzales?Originally posted by tennis_chiro View PostBut getting back to MarkB, I don't think MarkB's trophy position is that bad at all. I think the McCraw video makes a good argument for the change that MarkB needs to make. I would disagree with McCraw's description of the correct swing as an outside/in swing; I would call it the correct BACKswing. And this is the point Stotty is getting at about the outside backswing for pinpoint servers. Laver and Newcombe (and Gonzales) definitely take the racket a little to the outside on the initial backswing to drop the racket into the correct power slot. Macci talks about the racket head coming down in the plane right through the middle of his head and definitely not in the "waiter's tray" position; and that is exactly where MarkB takes the racket head from the trophy position.
But wait a minute. Here's someone else with a pretty good serve who does just exactly that:
You could set a nice mug of beer on that racket face just before he drops into the "power drop" position. But Pete gets a lot lower than MarkB. (Also notice that he is still driving up with his left leg, but his right leg is off the ground way before the left finishes, but the legs are definitely driving up, as Macci suggests, before the racket reaches its lowpoint). Notice the rotation of the hips. They have rotated maybe 60 degrees forward of their total 100 to 120 degree total rotation toward and past the target before the racket tip started to rise at all. There is definitely hip over hip and shoulder over shoulder rotation (Gordon likes to use the image of the rolling barrels), but the action that swings the racket head over to the appropriate line to enable all of this is the rotation of the hips and then the shoulders; the rotation that we do quite naturally when we don't have a stick in our hands and are just throwing the ball.
So what would I recommend for MarkB? He's got to learn to feel the drop of the racket head to his right behind his back before it goes up to the ball, what we sometimes call the "loop" we feel in the service motion as the racket head kicks from right to left and then back over to the right before it gets on the expressway direct to impact and lined up on the target. When Laver and Newcombe took their backswings out to the side (but not too far) they gave the racket head some lateral momentum to swing it back to the opposite side before they came up at the ball, but there were an awful lot of guys in those days who swung the racket straight back as well.
don_budge would probably like this guy:
KLACR would tell you this guy of a more recent vintage is a pretty good model too:
Here's someone else who had a pretty good serve, but took the racket straight back and even into Macci's "forbidden area" beyond the middle of his head. If you look carefully, you'll see that he compensates with a double clutch, backs up a little and then goes into a bit of a tray position before dropping into a great, deep power drop position where he did indeed develop a lot of power:
I think MarkB has to address the problem don_budge brought up right away. He has no rhythm to what he is doing. He'd be much better starting his hands just a little higher and trying to adopt a motion like Gonzales with a clear rhythmic rock back and forth synchronized with his hands going up and down: hands down/weight back, hands up/weight forward. This is not the predominant motion anymore, but it definitely works and MarkB needs something to hold everything he is doing together. I would strongly suggest he address that problem of rhythm before he worries about anything else. At the same time, I would get him doing various versions of my figure 8 to see if he can find and appreciate the advantage of a deeper power drop in his backswing. If that doesn't do the trick, then we have to get "medieval on his ass" and have him do some "hiccups". Yes that is a drastic measure, but look at what it did for this guy's serve when he did something like that. He doesn't want to admit it worked, but he increased the speed of his first serve about 15 mph for a few months and won the US Open... but he doesn't want to admit it helped him and so he went back to his old serve:
(That is Christophe Delavaut's youtube channel; he's narrating. He used to make contributions in this Forum and I like a lot of his stuff.)
Hmm. That old Rafa backswing looks a lot like MarkB: elbow above the shoulder line, ...
Well, I hope that will give some additional life to this interesting thread. And my guess is that if MarkB can serve 115 with that motion, he's got another 10 mph in him in a motion that doesn't cause him to have a sore arm (if indeed that is the root cause) if he can develop better sequencing and a deeper power drop that incorporates the use of his legs, core and shoulders in a more gradual and complete wave of power so his arm doesn't have to work so hard.
donStottyComment
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I experimented with rhythm and that's how I was able to realize that if I focus on my right shoulder more I could feel the racquet fly from left to the right during the racquet drop. I'm not sure what you mean about starting higher like Gonzales though.Originally posted by licensedcoach View PostComment
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From scrunch to scrunch: first scrunch the back back wards to the right, and then forwards to the left as fast as you can, to whip lash the shoulder and arm. If you stay sideways to the baseline, on the ad side, this will cause the ball to go auto to their bh wide. If you follow through to the rear fence, it will cause huge twist action automatically with a spin string pattern/set up.Last edited by GeoffWilliams; 03-23-2015, 06:18 PM.Comment
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Try using your ubersense side by side. You can download the Gonzales video from the archive in QuicktimePlayerPro. You'll see your hands start much lower than Pancho's. But I would be very curious to see what would happen if you tried to mimic Gonzales service motion. I think it would be a very good fit for you. His hands start higher and don't go as low as yours, so he is never rushed in his motion. The front to back to front weight transfer is a little different for you, but it fits your "stroke personality" of bouncing into the motion.Originally posted by markb View Post
To really understand his rhythm, think hands down/weight back and then hands up/weight forward. It's just a little bounce towards the back; the weight never gets more than 50% on the back foot, but as his hands are rising his weight is bouncing forward. It's pretty quick, but it's not at all rushed; part of the elegance/effortlessness of the motion.
It's something I push forward as a postulate all the time; I don't seem to get a lot of traction with it. I think the weight-transfer/rock and the toss must be completely interlinked to hold the motion together; that's the rhythm of the serve. You can't have a consistent reliable serve under pressure without it in my view.
donComment
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Deeper Racquet Drop
So I've been re-reading all the posts about my motion and was finally able to realize what tennis chiro was talking about with his drills to get deeper racquet drop. I made a quick video doing some shadow swings and wanted to see if you guys think that the racquet drop looks better.
The first two swings were my old swing, and the last 3 were me trying to get a feel for getting the power drop. I'm not focusing much on contact point or any tilts with my body. So just from a racquet drop perspective I would like to know if that's is what I'm looking for here. Please let me know what you think and thanks again for the input.
Note: I haven't tried the Gonzales motion yet, but will try in a few days.Comment
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