Please Help with Serve Motion

[markb]

Here is a serve of me just going at medium speed with my basic service motion. Can anyone please figure out why when I do this motion for an extended period of time my bicep region starts to get tender and sore? I believe that it is my Brachialis muscle that gets overused. I would also get this same soreness when I used to play dodgeball in high school after playing for a few hours. I know that typically people would throw out their shoulders or elbow but not many people seem to get my problem. So if anyone can see or give any suggestions that would be very much appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkbN-Od00MA Side view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P4lCcwkWUo Rear view

Thank you

[GeoffWilliams]

No leg drive/bend, to provide some of the power to the shot. Not extending the shoulder or reaching, all the way back. (Internal shoulder rotation.) See the article on serving esr/isr last month. When you reach /cock the shoulder back more, and combine that with a deep leg drive on coiling, your weight/shoulder transfer will be far more effective. Also, get a tennex impact absorber to wear on your arm to take some impact, and use about 25g of clear, soft (when dried) silicone in your frame butt handle, and counter balance that with 1/4" lead on the hoop. Those will help prevent some of the shock getting to you, and provide more plow through. http://www.amazon.com/Tennex-Elbow-S.../dp/B002N1OJSI

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/LC/customize.html

[markb]

Thank you for your reply. When you mean reach back with the shoulder, do you mean that my shoulders need to be more parallel with the baseline or should the right shoulder be lower? Thank you.

[stotty]

Here is a serve of me just going at medium speed with my basic service motion. Can anyone please figure out why when I do this motion for an extended period of time my bicep region starts to get tender and sore? I believe that it is my Brachialis muscle that gets overused. I would also get this same soreness when I used to play dodgeball in high school after playing for a few hours. I know that typically people would throw out their shoulders or elbow but not many people seem to get my problem. So if anyone can see or give any suggestions that would be very much appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkbN-Od00MA Side view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P4lCcwkWUo Rear view

Thank you

Nice serve. You're hitting some really good positions and the motion looks efficient. I cannot think why it should be causing bicep problems. I know abbreviated motions like yours can cause rotator cuff injuries. I cannot quite remember why this is but think it may have something to do with abbreviated motions not sharing the load as well as classic motions. tennis_chiro understands body parts better than the rest of us so he may be able to shed some light if he pops into the forum.

You serve reminds me a little of Roddick's. Roddick's arms work more together than yours but there are certainly some similarities. It would be nice to see your true mechanics by posting another video where you take time to deliver your serve...then deliver your best one. Stroking the ball in does not show too much.

[markb]

Thank you for your input. I will try to do it this week then. I'm about 5,7 ft and I can serve at 115 mph, I originally modeled my serve from Roddick awhile back. Now I"m just trying to figure out what is causing me to have that region to get sore. I've been racking my brain over this for the past 3 weeks, doing side by sides with pros and reading bio-mechanics of serve on this site. I'm starting to get to a conclusion that it might just be some kind of strength or conditioning issue. Will wait and see if anyone else has anything else to add.

[stotty]

Thank you for your input. I will try to do it this week then. I'm about 5,7 ft and I can serve at 115 mph, I originally modeled my serve from Roddick awhile back. Now I"m just trying to figure out what is causing me to have that region to get sore. I've been racking my brain over this for the past 3 weeks, doing side by sides with pros and reading bio-mechanics of serve on this site. I'm starting to get to a conclusion that it might just be some kind of strength or conditioning issue. Will wait and see if anyone else has anything else to add.

Like I said tennis_chiro might know. Failing him your probably in the wrong type of forum to get help. People here are either coaches (like me) or tennis enthusiasts. You probably need a physio.

Yes post again...a bazooka delivery. I would love to see it. I know others on the forum would too. A Roddick motion is tough to pull off so it would be great to see you serving at your best.

[johnyandell]

Mark,

You've already gotten great technical feedback but let me turn your premise on it's head. What makes you so sure your serve is causing the soreness? (Even if you feel it most in the service motion.)
In my experience late contact on the forehand could be the culprit--or also a stiff frame (aren't they all) combined with stiff poly.
The physical conditioning question is valid. In today's game you better be doing something for every single muscle group in your body--and that can especially apply to young guys who can smoke the ball. 115mph is fast!

John Yandell

[klacr]

MarkB,

Your motion looks good. Maybe more leg drive as Geoff suggested to help overall serve but really, leg drive or not should not be causing pan in arm. To me, I don't care how good your serve is or how fast you can hit it, if you start having pain you may not be playing or capable of hitting for that long and unable to enjoy this game and that would be a real shame.

Good news is you say the pain is in your bicep. It would be bad if it was in a joint.

Here's a silly question. What is your grip pressure on your serve? Hard to tell on the video but looks like your whole hand is on that grip and fingers wrapped tightly around it. May wanna try to loosen it a bit. Interesting that you also mention you had the same feeling after playing dodgeball when in school. Dodgeball, a game that creates a bit of stress and tension and requires you at the same time to strain, squeeze and prepare for impact of getting hit by an incoming ball. Naturally your body will tighten up. May be a tension issue.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[markb]

Mark,

You've already gotten great technical feedback but let me turn your premise on it's head. What makes you so sure your serve is causing the soreness? (Even if you feel it most in the service motion.)
In my experience late contact on the forehand could be the culprit--or also a stiff frame (aren't they all) combined with stiff poly.
The physical conditioning question is valid. In today's game you better be doing something for every single muscle group in your body--and that can especially apply to young guys who can smoke the ball. 115mph is fast!

John Yandell

This is a great point. I have thought about this issue too. I never had any real problems before with any of my strokes. Then I switched from Nadal grip to a more closer to Djokovic grip (actually got it from this site) after I read your article on his forehand. I just tried it for fun to see how he can swing and finish over his shoulder. Somehow it felt good and made me play much better. At that same time I also did minor tweaks with my serve which is essentially what it is now. After all that I started feeling the soreness in my serves. I thought that my arm is just not used to this new grip and the new serve tweak must all be adding to it. I dismissed the idea that it was the grip because I never feel any discomfort using it, but after getting everyone feedback now i'm considering it again. I don't really hit anything late because I hit with almost extended arm most of my shots. I guess I might post a snippet of my forehand then because I really want to figure this out.

Thanks again.

[gzhpcu]

I like your serve. I particularly like how you look up to the contact point prior to tossing the ball, it keeps your head stable.

From my part, it just seems to me that you are off balance at the end of the motion. Have you tried tossing the ball further in front? This might help the weight transfer and get you leaning into the ball and moving forward.

[don_budge]

Andy Roddick…the coaches nightmare model

Here is a serve of me just going at medium speed with my basic service motion. So if anyone can see or give any suggestions that would be very much appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkbN-Od00MA Side view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P4lCcwkWUo Rear view

Thank you

Thank you for your input. I will try to do it this week then. I'm about 5,7 ft and I can serve at 115 mph, I originally modeled my serve from Roddick awhile back. Now I"m just trying to figure out what is causing me to have that region to get sore. I've been racking my brain over this for the past 3 weeks, doing side by sides with pros and reading bio-mechanics of serve on this site. I'm starting to get to a conclusion that it might just be some kind of strength or conditioning issue. Will wait and see if anyone else has anything else to add.

Number one…I don't feel that an Andy Roddick motion is one for anybody to try and emulate or to use as a model basis for their serve. First of all…I have never seen any top player in all of my years use this motion before. The Andy Roddick motion is what I would pretty much call a gimmick and it works for him…but he may have been able to do even better with a "better" motion. I find the Roddick motion lacking in some of the most fundamental of aspects that a motion should be built upon.

If I am not mistaken, Andy Roddick is about 6' 4" and you are 5' 7" so it is very likely that this motion is incompatible with your own physical frame. One of the things that may make the Roddick motion suitable for him is his height. He generally serves a very hard and very flat delivery on his first ball in particular and at your height this is not advisable. You need to get 70% of your first serves in and 115 mph should take a back seat to spin and placement at your height of 5' 7". So if you only recently "modeled" your motion after Roddick's and you have developed this problem in your arm…I wonder if the two are related.

Come to think of it…a dodge ball throwing motion might be a good way to describe Andy Roddick's service motion.

When I first saw your motion I asked myself…where is the rest of it? Where is the backswing? Your motion is awfully abbreviated and this has a great influence on your timing of the "hit" and consequently where and how you are tossing the ball. I noticed that your ball toss motion was what I would call unorthodox as well. One of the things that I was looking for in your video but is not available is where you were actually tossing the ball, the height and location of your toss…as this would be one of the most contributing factors if this serve motion is actually the cause of your pain.

Even with your lack of a backswing you get into an extremely nice position where the you assume the position that I discuss here:

At 3.30 in the Rick Macci serve video that hockeyscout so generously has shared with us for this evolving thread...Rick says the following complete with his expressive body language and gags.

"position of the elbow. The elbow should always be shoulder, shoulder, elbow. Should always be...I could draw a straight line...I don't even need to look...there's a straight line through my shoulder, shoulder, elbow. Every time. It's almost like a see-saw...like a teeter totter."

He is demonstrating the trophy position. He assumes a position similar to Usain Bolt's archer position. I have been using this imagery in teaching the smash, the abbreviated "second serve" motion for beginners and on through with more advanced motions. I alway like using the image of creating lines with students. Vectors of energy lining up the shot.

Here is the Rick Macci video that I am referencing…it's worth watching as well. Your "elbow, shoulder, shoulder elbow" is fine and I think you need to pay attention to "toss, bend and tilt" as well while incorporating a nice rhythmic backswing. Then leg drive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vc3_pUFSgI

So you get yourself in this nice position but I question you on how repeatable a motion this is as you have no rhythm to work with. No rhythm as in a rhythmic back swing.

I would recommend that you post your old service motion and be a bit more deliberate so as we might see your setup position and other points of interest. In your next post I would like to see you setup and aim to the deuce court and hit three serves to each corner of the box then do the same in the add court. Please include the side view and the rear view and it would be nice to see the full arch of the ball in the toss. Forget about serving like Andy Roddick. Let's serve like markb and go from there.

[don_budge]

Technifibre…TFlash 315

In my experience late contact on the forehand could be the culprit--or also a stiff frame (aren't they all) combined with stiff poly.

John Yandell

The racquet looks to me to be a Technifibre TFlash 315.

[arturohernandez]

The serve looks good. I posted a longer message on the serving on edge thread in the forums were I give more context.

For a while I served from the trophy and found that I could hit the serve much harder but had a much more difficult time adding spin. But it was like a lightening strike and it helped me to feel what it was like to accelerate the racket.

The serve you showed us on the video reminded me of that. It seems like a lightening strike.

I wondered whether you could spin the ball or vary the spin on the ball with this motion (i.e hit slice, topspin/slice and kick).

The other thing that thing that resonates from other replies is the lack of legs.

It seems like you could do a better job of using the ground to slowly gather energy and then push it up through your hands and into the ball.

Right now it feels like you are just smacking it in the air rather than using the whole body to fling it up and into the court.

I am also 5'7" but getting close to 50 and have found that I cannot hit as hard as I used to hit. But I also feel like spin really bothers people more than absolute speed.

I agree with others who stated that adding more spin might be more beneficial than hitting absolutely fast.

Maybe you've had a chance to watch Diego Schwartzman lately. He is listed at 5'7" and keeps his serve around 100 mph.

He seems to hit a lot of spin on his serve and is in the top 100 and may even break into the top 50.

He might be a better model for those of us in the 5'7" range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTSdAwWZ0FY

[stroke]

I like his serve motion also. I really like that serve instructional video by Rick Macci that DB via hockeyscout provided. In it, Rick, via Brian Gordon, actually promotes the type serve motion that markb has, which is starting one's serve from the trophy position. Brian and Rick call it the "on probation". I am not going to get into the reasoning behind this. Rick certainly explains it very well in the video.

[10splayer]

I like his serve motion also. I really like that serve instructional video by Rick Macci that DB via hockeyscout provided. In it, Rick, via Brian Gordon, actually promotes the type serve motion that markb has, which is starting one's serve from the trophy position. Brian and Rick call it the "on probation". I am not going to get into the reasoning behind this. Rick certainly explains it very well in the video.

https://youtu.be/WuIgTyh4aDs

And this may be the next progression..The abbreviated motion help keep the racquet "outside" and this would promote the same, with a little fuller backswing...