"The Federer Mistake"…Federer BH vs. Wawrinka BH

[bottle]

I saw 21 year old Guillermo Vilas in 1973 when he burst onto the tennis map with his showing at the Washington Star tennis tournament. He beat Manuel Orantes in the first round who was one of the leading clay court specialists in the world at the time. I was at the tournament with Don Budge and the rest of the tennis camp. Mr. Budge was so impressed with Vilas' ability to come over the ball to produce topspin on the backhand side…I remember discussing his grip with Don over breakfast the next day as he showed me his grip in comparison with Vilas'.

Man, I wish I had been there.

[don_budge]

The Proof…is in the pudding. The Respective Backhands.

It's an interesting comparison…the Federer BH vs. the Wawrinka BH. It's legitimate to even say that one is flawed or one is better than the other. Notice I said legitimate…and I didn't say "right" or "wrong". I'm so proud of myself.

But here is about as clear of a comparison as you could hope for. I mean that literally as the HD quality of this video is better than being there. Talk about virtual reality.

Federer defeats Wawrinka 3-6, 7-6, 6-4, 6-4 (2014 Wimbledon quarterfinals)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iXwYZmG7JE

This match was played immediately after Wawrinka’s win over Federer at Monte Carlo...Federer returning to action immediately after his second set of twins.

At 5.26 here John McEnroe’s comments...

"That is exactly the reason why he got that racquet. He got the bigger frame so he could get a better look at the backhand...hit it cleanly more...a bigger sweet spot. Feel more confident when he swings out. It certainly worked there."

Johnny is hitting the nail on the head for the duration of this match. His analysis of the respective games of Roger Federer and Stan Wawrinka are second to none. He makes so many thoughtful comments during this commentary it was tempting to go back and watch the match again and flag all of them.

In the first set Wawrinka is hitting some monster backhands. He takes the first set too…in a tiebreaker. But Roger weathers the storm and settles into the match. He better than any player today knows how to let the match come to him. He weathers the initial onslaught of Wawrinka and he knows that deep down inside of himself that Wawrinka cannot sustain this kind of play against him. Why does he know this? Because he knows that he can disrupt the rhythm of the more "robotic" Swiss with his change of pace, spin and placement. He knows that he is in control when it comes down to it and besides…it's Roger's house.

Much as this is John's house. Control…is power.

[don_budge]

The "Grip System"...

We are in the same website and forum, where big knuckle does come first and heel of hand second even if that might suggest reading in Chinese.

I have never felt comfortable with this grip system. I think it highly unnecessary. It's great that you and others feel good about it. One thing about it is that for me, it is like reading Chinese…or at least Arabic. I am left handed…does that render the whole system useless without the use of a mirror or some other conversion device?

The other thing about the system is that it is hardly universal. That's important…if you are a teacher.

[tennis_chiro]

I have never felt comfortable with this grip system. I think it highly unnecessary. It's great that you and others feel good about it. One thing about it is that for me, it is like reading Chinese…or at least Arabic. I am left handed…does that render the whole system useless without the use of a mirror or some other conversion device?

The other thing about the system is that it is hardly universal. That's important…if you are a teacher.

Come on, Steve, get over it. It is universal. It's just a way to describe the position of the hand; it doesn't say anything about where the hand has to be. Righties start with 1 at the top and count clockwise around the grip as the racket is in front of them as they hold it and lefties just count counter-clockwise and they have the exact mirror image description. No big deal.

The question of the convention is whether the first number in the system is the first knuckle or the heel of the hand and as Bottle points out, the standard convention is that the first number in the grip description is the firsts knuckle.

don

[lobndropshot]

It is universal because there are always 8 bevels on every tennis racket and most people have a knuckle pad and heal pad on their hand. How you choose to number it and what language you number it with is up to the person.

[bottle]

It is universal because there are always 8 bevels on every tennis racket and most people have a knuckle pad and heal pad on their hand. How you choose to number it and what language you number it with is up to the person.

But might as well work toward the language that enables the most people to talk to the most with everybody able to understand the other. This requires a certain generosity of spirit, no?

[lobndropshot]

Yes! But, I prefer generosity with spirits...

Bartender! One more round for everyone!

[bottle]

Glub.

[lobndropshot]

Yes! But, I prefer generosity with spirits...

Bartender! One more round for everyone!

one more round

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO6t8nkZ97Q

[klacr]

Come on, Steve, get over it. It is universal. It's just a way to describe the position of the hand; it doesn't say anything about where the hand has to be. Righties start with 1 at the top and count clockwise around the grip as the racket is in front of them as they hold it and lefties just count counter-clockwise and they have the exact mirror image description. No big deal.

The question of the convention is whether the first number in the system is the first knuckle or the heel of the hand and as Bottle points out, the standard convention is that the first number in the grip description is the firsts knuckle.

don

Greetings from cold, snowy Michigan. Up here for a tennis conference. Big names and big presentations await. Fingers crossed I get my points across and make an impact on the students. That is the goal.

For what it's worth...
On the USPTA Certification exam, the grip test refers to the knuckle as the first number, the heel (or pad) of the hand on the second.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

The Ministry of Tennis...

For what it's worth...
On the USPTA Certification exam, the grip test refers to the knuckle as the first number, the heel (or pad) of the hand on the second.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

It is a terrible system. Replacing a system that was much better. Continental…Eastern…Western. Add the words strong or weak in front of either Eastern or Western. Describe the grip in terms of where the "V" of the forefinger and the thumb meet. Describe the grip in terms of where the thumb is when extended on the backhand. Describe the grip in terms of where the forefinger is when extended on the forehand. All better visual descriptions. Easier on the eye…on the brain. On the student.

But it is a good example how you can get everyone to nod their heads in unison. By decree.

Come on, Steve, get over it.
don

Hahaha…trust me. I'm over it. All of it. Get with it tennis_chiro. But that's redundant…you already are. I don't need you or anybody else to tell me to "get over it"…any more than you need anybody including me to tell you to get with it. But…you know…feel free. That's what Obama is telling you about the wars without end. Get over it. Get with it. Just go shopping. Oh wait a minute…that was George Bush. Meet the new boss…same as the old boss. Who's Next?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7sk3SD24UE

All starts with grips. The big knuckle designation comes FIRST. The heel of hand designation comes SECOND.

Thus Justine and Guga are 8/8 . Roger is 1/1 and Stanislas 1.5/8 . Did I know that? Did anybody? Hell no.

So the difference between me and others is as I said…if everyone is warm and fuzzy with this…by all means. So I am curious…is Justine a strong eastern or a weak western? What about Federer and Wawrinka? The number designations are meaningless to the average student. But I suppose this is just another level of sophistication.

I think Roger Federer has a strong eastern grip on his backhand and I think Stan Wawrinka has an even stronger grip. I will leave it to others to quibble…which all this essentially is.

A great man once said…if you wish to speak with me, you must first define your terms. Actually I just made that up. No I didn't. Yes I did. Ok…it was Voltaire.

Go ahead and spell it organise. But that sounds like organ-nice. I will continue to spell it organize. It sounds like organ-eyes to me. I don't need anybody to confirm that either.

[don_budge]

Question…two-hand backhands

What about the grip coordinates of the two-hand backhand? Do you have two different sets of coordinates for both hands? Do the coordinates change in orientation for the left hand and the right hand. Is bevel X for the right hand still bevel X for the left hand?

Just curious.

[don_budge]

Wikipedia…revision?

Apparently Wikipedia needs a revision. The heel of the hand is not taken into account in this version.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grip_(tennis)

[lobndropshot]

For me the "V" is extremely confusing because it doesn't even look like a "V," it looks more like a "U."

Also, I don't believe it is as accurate. Due to the fact that I can have the "V" on the right notch but have the heel of my hand in the wrong place and still think I am in the correct grip. If you don't have a way to track the bottom part of the hand then the system is not sound.

However, with 1-8 system there is a learning curve and that is the main downside. For example, in a pinch I will the "V" system if I don't time to explain that the are 8 bevels on the tennis racket and explain the part of the hand and so on. But, when there is time to learn the 1-8 system more accurate.

As for the backhand the will be a total of 4 bevels taken into account.

[bottle]

Tailormake from the Universal Slats

Steve's post is very funny. And lobanddropshot's link to Wawrinkan winners is amazing. What a video! I'm resolved now never to PLAY THE POLITICAL CORRECTNESS CARD any more than PLAY THE RACE CARD CARD and go exclusively with Ralph Waldo Emerson or was it Henry David Thoreau when he said, "Simply, simplify, simplify!" or was it both who said that and who cares? The point is that they gave proper value to simplicity just as Johann Wolfgang von Goethe did. These three are men and not the only wise human beings there ever have been but their wisdom will suffice.

I now retreat from my earlier stance in favor of genial communication and adopt lobanddropshot's original position before we got into drinking of exclusive and passionate and maybe or maybe not selfish self-interest and further declare, "Anyone from this moment on who ever uses the cliche "Kumbaya" deserves to be shot in a rocket to the Andromeda Galaxy if not set adrift in a small open boat in Hudson's Bay."

Complete self-interest then, seen as a very good thing, will immediately have its own dictate (please note the curious though correct spelling of the possessive pronoun "its": this admonition has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with my fervent wish that my good friends succeed in their close-to-fruition attempt to write well).

Back to tennis. In the matter of grips, if words are more simplicity, use words. If numbers are more simplicity, use numbers. If using both or neither would help a student, do that.

But if you want a shortcut from either words or numbers or complicated demos, use the eight slats with your thumb bent and slanted on a 45-degree angle for all tennis shots. Because I have done overwhelming experiments and you ought to listen to me: Having thumb up a little on backhands, forehands and volleys makes no difference, mark my words, no difference at all. And if you adopt this system, you can always get knuck and heel in their exact right spots and never have to think about that again. Try it, you'll love it-- I do and who else matters? I'm just trying to say something about basic human nature here, and I'd now like to add something: You sometimes have to work with the following bag of people but always be extremely distrustful of anyone who advertises themself as an altruist.

My exception-- there always has to be an exception to everything-- and let me start again, my exception to my own generality about a little thumb up on all tennis strokes is the serve. Just doesn't feel right (and I told you, MY OPINION MATTERS).

Note: I saw a video here at this website one day in which a young J. Donald Budge with the slight strangeness of genius looked through a camera at me and said, "bottle, you need to put a little more thumb behind the handle of your racket whenever you want to hit a backhand." I've heard more recent teachers argue for thumb wrap instead-- for more supposed ease or some such nonsense-- but was their argument ever any more convincing than that made by J.D. Budge? I don't think so. In any case, this thumb up revelation, arrived at only a half-dozen other times in my life, led this time to easy full grip identification and therefore greater if occasional use of grips different from my originals from here to the end of my life.