Nadal's Follow-through on wide forehands...

[gzhpcu]

often doesn't finish on his right side, but goes to the right, but then loops high back over his head to the left. He seems to do this more often than other players. I haven't read much about this type of a follow-through, any comments? Thanks

[johnyandell]

Robert Lansdorp calls it a reverse forehand. There is an article about it in Famous Coaches. Check it out. ou'll see Sharapova do the same thing from almost anywhere in the court. Apparently it's a way to get the racket head thru very quickly and is generally believed to be associated with more spin--but we don't really know. Once you look for it, you see it cropping up at some point with almost every player.

[vmiller]

Robert says ...

"By having a good reverse forehand, a pro player can save himself a minimum of 10 points in an average match. That's a huge difference, the difference between winning and losing in many, many matches."

Hmmm ...

I wonder if a player like Agassi or Blake would benefit from this shot. They have great forehands, but don't seem to use the reverse, unless I never noticed.

It certainly has gotten quite popular.

[vmiller]

I wonder if this is most commonly used by players that take their elbow behind their body plane during the backswing, which would explain why you don't see Agassi using it.

It seems like compensation for not getting the hitting elbow back up in front of the body plane quick enough.

[johnyandell]

Nah. It has to do with getting the racket head going fast by swinging up rather than forward. Pete had a great elbow position--in fact no pro player I know has one that goes behind the body! It can be used in a lot of situations but the exact why and wherefors I haven't figured out and I'm not sure anyone has.

[vmiller]

Pete had a great elbow position--in fact no pro player I know has one that goes behind the body!

I don't think we're talking about the same thing. Think of a pole going through the torso at the sides and the elbow going behind this pole during the backswing. Almost all pro women do it and many pro men do it. Agassi is one of the few exceptions that doesn't.

easitennis.com talks a lot about the elbow needing to be in front of the pole for stable contact. Those that bring the elbow behind the pole during the backswing require extra time to get the elbow back in front of the pole. Agassi doesn't need this extra time. The players that need the extra time may find the reverse forehand convienient with it's later contact.

This article is about rotation, but goes into what I'm talking about.

http://www.easitennis2.com/members/AdvancedForehandRotation.html

Sampras is on the list of players that does not go behind the body plane, so I guess that trashes my theory anyway.

[johnyandell]

Sorry I don't buy it. Ray is quite a student of the game, but I don't see any significant differences that would account for this. That theory is a little too artificial. First of all the differences in the camera angles make it almost impossible to really see. Bu the differences are a matter of a few inches--or less. Now compare that to the differences in the size of the backswings. There is far more variety in shape and differences in the travel time.

I just don't think you'd see the best 10 or 20 players in the world with a technical flaw that somehow makes them late on a lot of balls--and then have to compensate all the time with a reverse. Sorry. Why would they not make adjustments in the big size and time differences in the loop size? They would.

That's one of the great things in tennis--if you can make an argument that seems compelling someone will believe you. I know because I have convinced a lot of people of many things that I later decided were not as true as I once believed...

[vmiller]

Bu the differences are a matter of a few inches--or less. Now compare that to the differences in the size of the backswings. There is far more variety in shape and differences in the travel time.
...
Why would they not make adjustments in the big size and time differences in the loop size? They would.

Good points.

Just to clarify, easitennis doesn't associate this elbow thing with the reverse forehand. That was my crazy idea. And I don't think they necessarily say that taking the elbow behind the body plane is a horrible thing to do - just less efficient. But like you implied, it now seems obvious that there are other elements in the back swing that could lead to greater inefficiencies and timing challenges.

Thank you for the discussion.

That's one of the great things in tennis--if you can make an argument that seems compelling someone will believe you.

Yeah, great for the writers, but not the readers.

[johnyandell]

Yeah I think all the players we've talked about pretty much have figured it out...