The "Body Fly" shot - a Fantasy

[hockeyscout]

This was a small exchange between John and myself. All conjecture of course as these things can only be played out in our minds. John thought Connors would struggle taking the ball as early as he did in his heyday against Nadal and would end up hitting over the baseline. I thought it may not be so bad for Jimmy as that slightly opened racket face might enable him to hit under and through the ball better than most, as he would not have the battle of reversing the topspin to hit back with topspin as per the rest of the tour. If anything the incoming topspin might actually aid Jimmy's unique backhand a little...but then there is so much of it to deal with, topspin that is...4000rpm.

But of course you are right, Nadal couldn't hit that forehand with a T2000 so Jimmy wouldn't have to face it anyway...

True, but so interesting.

[stroke]

I do not think Nadal would not have any problem hitting his forehand with a Prince Original Graphite that Agassi used in the 80's, or that racquet Connors used in his 1988 US Open run.

Regarding Jordon and his coaching, he certainty had good coaching. But that is not the reason he is unquestionably the greatest player of all time, and in his prime right now, would still be the best player in basketball. I know this does not fit hs's view of the game changing and the old way being left behind. Jordan still has the highest recorded vertical jump(48 inches) ever recorded at an NBA Combine. He also has 9.5 inch hands, from base of wrist to end of middle finger, and his open hand spead out 11.5 inches from thumb to end of little finger. He could palm the ball so easily, off the dribble a so forth, that he could do things with the ball that have been rarely seen. Julius Erving had the same kind of hands, and in his prime, which was the 70's, he would still be a star today. Jordan was only about 6'5" tall, he was just an athelete that had tools that cannot be taught.

[stotty]

You want me to upload some more videos? What do you want to see? I'll post them, and then I will see if you can find better?

I think this is a good idea. I have posted many of my students' strokes "warts and all" in the past and received great help from others.

I would like to see the little one's complete range of strokes: forehand, backhand, serve, volleys and overhead. If it's not too much trouble I would like her to play around 4 games with a credible opponent...maybe against an older child if she is very strong for her age.

Let me know if you are willing to post clips on the forum. I know you will be putting a lot on the line by doing this but it would be great if you could.

I still think this is a good idea. Load some videos and let's take a look....be great to see how she is getting on with all the training she's undergoing.

[10splayer]

With all due respect to hockeyscout, even though you show none in return…even your impressive upbringing and personal history will not change the history of this great game. But it it does…if somehow your daughter is hoisting the Wimbledon trophy over her head sometime in the future, doing whatever it is that you are training her to do I will congratulate you…if the old man is still kicking. But not before. Nothing personal of course. But it won't happen unless at some point you hone in on the fundamentals of the game…which includes footwork and grips…which only is the prelude to tactics and spinning the ball.

And ditto for me, I will congratulate you, and state your fundamentals and paradigm are a winning one when I see a player of your's at the Wimbledon level as well.

With all due respect as well, and I won't even throw in a mocking comment either (with all due respect to hockeyscout, even though you show none in return).

See, this is the thing I don't get. Have you coached a Wimbledon player? Why do you use that criteria to evaluate someone you don't even know, when you haven't even done it yourself?

Look, Im a coach, and a one time player, who believes in the power of "what is possible". I think it is empowering for a player, and the ability to create that kind of environment is a tremendously important part of development.

However, that is a far cry from making predictions/guarantees for an 8 year old kid, and then evaluating others as if that has come to fruition. ITS NOT REALITY!!!!

[klacr]

Teaser!!!

This thread is special....because of it's timing and the topic.
I have not posted on this thread because I saw exactly where it was headed and the points that would be made.

We have two schools of thought. One trying to create something, to think outside the box, to see where tennis was heading. The other school is following the standard paradigm rooted in fundamentals. An argument that is tough to penetrate.

Not to let too much of the cat out of the bag but there will be an article coming out in a future issue of tennisplayer.net that I have written. It's talks about teaching, even showing a few of my own students, but more specifically touches on this underlying topic that has been so passionately debated in this thread. This topic that seems to be as polarizing as religion or politics.
I don't want to give too much but I hope all of us can get something out of the article. I also think there is a way we can all agree if we look at it in a new view that respects both schools of thought and without being so dogmatic. Please stay tuned!

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[10splayer]

I do not think Nadal would not have any problem hitting his forehand with a Prince Original Graphite that Agassi used in the 80's, or that racquet Connors used in his 1988 US Open run.

Regarding Jordon and his coaching, he certainty had good coaching. But that is not the reason he is unquestionably the greatest player of all time, and in his prime right now, would still be the best player in basketball. I know this does not fit hs's view of the game changing and the old way being left behind. Jordan still has the highest recorded vertical jump(48 inches) ever recorded at an NBA Combine. He also has 9.5 inch hands, from base of wrist to end of middle finger, and his open hand spead out 11.5 inches from thumb to end of little finger. He could palm the ball so easily, off the dribble a so forth, that he could do things with the ball that have been rarely seen. Julius Erving had the same kind of hands, and in his prime, which was the 70's, he would still be a star today. Jordan was only about 6'5" tall, he was just an athelete that had tools that cannot be taught.

And my point, is that certain sports rely more heavily on natural ability, physical characteristics then many of the secondary skill sports, which can be taught to a greater degree..(aquired) To lump them all together is laughable.

Another way to look at this, are there sports that rely more on quality coaching for proficiency? The answer is yes.

[stroke]

And my point, is that certain sports rely more heavily on natural ability, physical characteristics then many of the secondary skill sports, which can be taught to a greater degree..(aquired) To lump them all together is laughable.

Another way to look at this, are there sports that rely more on quality coaching for proficiency? The answer is yes.

That is exactly right. A guy that has the right physical tools, size, strength, and speed, can be a good, effective, football player pretty quickly, particularly on the defensive front seven. Hakeem Olajuwon, who certainly has the physical tools, did not start playing basketball until he was 15 years old, and he became one of the NBA greats. Those 2 sports are simply way more dependent on natural physical skills. Does anyone really think Olajuwon could have picked up tennis at 15 and have become a tennis great.

[GeoffWilliams]

It's similar to the argument: Laver was the best ever. Or, Bill Tilden was the best ever. There is no way to find out for sure, as they did not have modern equipment or technical/coaching/diet/etc.. But the opposite is true here. The future has not happened yet. And when it does, it will contain: body fly fh and bh by all top players. Those who deny it now will deny it later, even when the evidence is staring them in the face, they will say, "That's not a body fly shot. Leaving the ground does not help anyone." And it will be added to the pile of advances that the main body of teachers were dead set against, and yet, some brave player decided that he was going to do whatever the hell he wanted to.

The players determine what works, not coaches.

[10splayer]

That is exactly right. A guy that has the right physical tools, size, strength, and speed, can be a good, effective, football player pretty quickly, particularly on the defensive front seven. Hakeem Olajuwon, who certainly has the physical tools, did not start playing basketball until he was 15 years old, and he became one of the NBA greats. Those 2 sports are simply way more dependent on natural physical skills. Does anyone really think Olajuwon could have picked up tennis at 15 and have become a tennis great.

Good example, glad you agree. Hockeyscout and I have a bet. You're the judge. I win. He can't post for a month.

[don_budge]

Credibility..Round 1…Perfect Service Motion

Thanks 10splayer…the logic isn't there. It means a lot to me that you might say a word in support of me. But I am here for the amusement of others. I have good self esteem…there is no need for me to promote myself. I am but a poor man living in the woods here in Sweden. Trying to make peace in my heart.

I love my students. They mean so much to me. It's like a mission with me. God put me here to do something. I found my calling. Thank you Lord.

When I was young I wasn't rich. I was doing my own laundry at the age of 16. I never touched a tennis racquet until I was 14 and my parents split up two years later…by the age of 19 I was playing number one singles at an American university. In two years there I split my matches…I won as many as I lost. I played five players that have since played at Wimbledon and I lost to all five. I never backed down and didn't give anything away. Not to anybody. Nothing to be ashamed of. Just part of life. The experiences of nobody in particular.

This is my service motion. It was a beautiful thing. Still is actually. Don Budge helped me to make this. The picture is in 1975 or so. Twenty one years old. You should have seen the person on the other side of the camera. What a lovely she was…she was older than me.

On the other hand…I am a rich man and have been all of my life. Rich in those things that money cannot buy. For instance…you cannot buy a perfect service motion. You cannot purchase the ability to teach it either. I possess both.

See, this is the thing I don't get. Have you coached a Wimbledon player? Why do you use that criteria to evaluate someone you don't even know, when you haven't even done it yourself?

Look, Im a coach, and a one time player, who believes in the power of "what is possible". I think it is empowering for a player, and the ability to create that kind of environment is a tremendously important part of development.

However, that is a far cry from making predictions/guarantees for an 8 year old kid, and then evaluating others as if that has come to fruition. ITS NOT REALITY!!!!

[don_budge]

Money can't buy me love...

Tell me you want the things that money just can't buy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMwZsFKIXa8

Yeah…it's pretty tough to put me down. I am not easily intimidated. Plus…I always know the score.

But here is…how much is it worth? Priceless...


Round 2…A letter of recommendation (sorry about the size) not…

[hockeyscout]

See, this is the thing I don't get. Have you coached a Wimbledon player? Why do you use that criteria to evaluate someone you don't even know, when you haven't even done it yourself?

Look, Im a coach, and a one time player, who believes in the power of "what is possible". I think it is empowering for a player, and the ability to create that kind of environment is a tremendously important part of development.

However, that is a far cry from making predictions/guarantees for an 8 year old kid, and then evaluating others as if that has come to fruition. ITS NOT REALITY!!!!

As a responsible parent you always need to evaluate others, and pick, choose. Ending up with a Barry Switzer can ruin a player, and a lot of moms, dads and families end up making very bad choices. So, yes, evaluate, and be skeptical, you need to be!

Jordan's vertical jump was 48, and he earned it through hard work. He did not magically fall out of bed, and perform like a world number one. That took a lot of deliberate work on his end. You're living in a dream world if you think Jordan just arrived on top out of nowhere. Same with Kobe, I'd estimate Kobe and Jordan logged more practice hours than any other pros ever to play the game.

[hockeyscout]

That is exactly right. A guy that has the right physical tools, size, strength, and speed, can be a good, effective, football player pretty quickly, particularly on the defensive front seven. Hakeem Olajuwon, who certainly has the physical tools, did not start playing basketball until he was 15 years old, and he became one of the NBA greats. Those 2 sports are simply way more dependent on natural physical skills. Does anyone really think Olajuwon could have picked up tennis at 15 and have become a tennis great.

Olajuwon would have been superlative in anything.

Right now he's one of the worlds best coaches, and Lebron James hangs on every word he says, and Lebron is a smart man.

Functionally Olajuwon is perfect.

Watch the guy in this video, he's 50, and his movement is a perfect dream.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH4AjDgl1Ng

You need to read his book Living the Dream BTW, it was a perfect developmental storm, and yes, it could have happened in tennis as well.

God dam, 7'0, and athletically, The Dream. And, yes, he was developed as a soccer goalie, a position where footwork is so vital. It was a perfect base to go into an sport where he had to use his hands. Once the feet are set, the hands go along for a ride, and the rest is simple as pie. Tennis is no different. Once you got the hips and the movement, the hands always fall into place (in any sport). Can't teach racket fundamentals to guys who can't move properly.

And, BTW, what assisted him was getting developed by Moses Malone, a guy who never really achieved his potential as a player. Malone, arguably the best center man in basketball at the time taught Olajuwon the right fundamentals (who better to teach you then one of the games greatest), and it was relatively simple when you take into account how good his feet were to begin with! So, its all about that perfect storm. Lots of guys had Olajuwon raw ability in Africa, however, he found a perfect storm, and it happened in basketball. In tennis, it could have happened if he has Pete Sampras take him under his wing, and a great D1 coached worked with him! Also, their was another player at the time at the University of Houston that The Dream became fast friends with, and that was Clyde The Glide Drexler, an eventual member of the Dream Team. He taught him the game, so a double whammy! Two top 50 players of all time competing against each other, and yes, Clyde taught him how to play. So, I guess in tennis if he came to a superb D1 school that was in of final four quality in the first year you arrived (Olajuwon red shirted), you got a chance to practice and go head to head against Sampras (who is also mentoring you), some of the best players in the nation are playing you daily, and oh, one of those teammates is Roger Federer who is also mentoring you. Yes, tennis, it would have happened for him in his sport. Olajuwon came out of Africa a big time athlete already with the size, speed and footwork, and he had the intelligence no coach in the business had, and he managed to get Hall of Famers helping him out.

And no, he did not have natural skills. He earned them the hard way. Again, no one steps out of bed into the NBA or NFL like people imagine. They all have a pretty unique story, and set of developmental circumstances.

[hockeyscout]

It's similar to the argument: Laver was the best ever. Or, Bill Tilden was the best ever. There is no way to find out for sure, as they did not have modern equipment or technical/coaching/diet/etc.. But the opposite is true here. The future has not happened yet. And when it does, it will contain: body fly fh and bh by all top players. Those who deny it now will deny it later, even when the evidence is staring them in the face, they will say, "That's not a body fly shot. Leaving the ground does not help anyone." And it will be added to the pile of advances that the main body of teachers were dead set against, and yet, some brave player decided that he was going to do whatever the hell he wanted to.

The players determine what works, not coaches.

I agree.

[bottle]

One of the Better Letters of Recommendation Ever

Tell me you want the things that money just can't buy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMwZsFKIXa8

Yeah…it's pretty tough to put me down. I am not easily intimidated. Plus…I always know the score.

But here is…how much is it worth? Priceless...


Round 2…A letter of recommendation (sorry about the size) not…

I had all-purpose letters like this from poet-translator Edwin Honig, and from William Golding, who subsequently won the Nobel Prize for Literature.

Guess what, I lost them! And later was a successful counselor of people in desperate need of a job. Guess what I told them? Don't lose letters like this!

(Actually, you could make copies and probably sell the original.)