The "Body Fly" shot - a Fantasy

[don_budge]

"Scientists and Artists"...

Watch this http://www.britishpathe.com/video/big-bill-tilden

Tilden's first match as a professional. Does his movement seem athletic to today's standards? Does his serve seem up to today's standards? In both cases, modern equipment is irrelevant...

…and it is irrelevant because you say so?

[don_budge]

From Fantasy...

...and up next: the body fly groundie, the snap back volley, the uni grip top spin volley game.

…to hallucination.

[gzhpcu]

Just think if we looked at film of football, basketball or even baseball players from the 1920's. The one shot that looks a little interesting is the short forehand Big Bill hits before the overhead and maybe the missed first serve. Clearly, this is a different game. Even though we can play the Tilden beat Budge beat Kramer beat Gonzales beat Laver beat etc to give Tilden an indirect win over anyone today.

It's not like swimming or track and field where there are measurable standards.

don

What I am talking about is athletic movement. How Tilden moved then, and how Federer, Nadal, etc. move today. This has nothing to do with rackets, it is athletic movement.

[tennis_chiro]

Another advantage of being on the ground

You have to realize, as big as the ball was being hit in the last 3 or 4 rounds of the Aussie Open, those shots were not necessarily the last shot in the rally. And it is really hard to make a push off in recovery in mid air!

don

[don_budge]

"Scientists and Artists"…part II

What I am talking about is athletic movement. How Tilden moved then, and how Federer, Nadal, etc. move today. This has nothing to do with rackets, it is athletic movement.

…and again, it has nothing to do with racquets or shoes…because you say so?

[hockeyscout]

You have to realize, as big as the ball was being hit in the last 3 or 4 rounds of the Aussie Open, those shots were not necessarily the last shot in the rally. And it is really hard to make a push off in recovery in mid air!

don

Their can only be one number one 8-9-10-11-12-13 ECT in the world, so, its a case one player, parent or coach will be right, and everyone else will be wrong. I will be judged on our results. And, thats great!

[10splayer]

Their can only be one number one 8-9-10-11-12-13 ECT in the world, so, its a case one player, parent or coach will be right, and everyone else will be wrong. I will be judged on our results. And, thats great!

Silly me, I thought the whole point of these threads were about your daughters development.

[hockeyscout]

Silly me, I thought the whole point of these threads were about your daughters development.

Stay classy.

[10splayer]

Stay classy.

Just calling it like i see it. Not an employee of yours, so I'm able to have an opinion.

[hockeyscout]

Just calling it like i see it. Not an employee of yours, so I'm able to have an opinion.

tennis_chiro was discussing about how hard it is to make a push off in recovery in mid-air, and he was saying earlier he did not agree with what he conceives to be our jumping (which is not what we are doing, however, that is beside the point because it is another matter in entirety).

You know, this board is really getting so negative, and personal.

[GeoffWilliams]

Load and launch, just like many other sports. They all have the body fly fh, but few have the bh, and it's a telling difference in their lower mph/rpm for bh shots.

[gzhpcu]

You know, this board is really getting so negative, and personal.

There is a neat solution: ignore list. I use it and bingo! problem resolved..

[tennis_chiro]

tennis_chiro was discussing about how hard it is to make a push off in recovery in mid-air, and he was saying earlier he did not agree with what he conceives to be our jumping (which is not what we are doing, however, that is beside the point because it is another matter in entirety).

You know, this board is really getting so negative, and personal.

Haven't got time for a fuller answer, but I don't like the negativity either, especially when it gets personal. I am trying to ask questions. I think I have some answers, but I want to hear the other side of the argument/discussion. When Phil says you have to use ground forces, but Stotty reminds us that an awful lot of people are hitting good shots are off the ground, we look deeper into what is going on. Players definitely sometimes jump to raise their strike zone to the level of the ball, but I think most players leave the ground as part of thefollow through and when the effort becomes more like jumping for the sake of jumping, the correct objectives are being lost.

My point about pushing off in mid-air is that there are other considerations other than simply how hard can you hit the ball on a given stroke.

But, pardon me if I come across as so negative. I'm trying to be positive in a bid for more classical balance and biomechanics. Technique definitely evolves over time, but the underlying rules of physics don't change.

don

[stotty]

Players definitely sometimes jump to raise their strike zone to the level of the ball, but I think most players leave the ground as part of thefollow through and when the effort becomes more like jumping for the sake of jumping, the correct objectives are being lost.

My point about pushing off in mid-air is that there are other considerations other than simply how hard can you hit the ball on a given stroke.

don

This is exactly how I see it. Leaving the ground is a byproduct of what went on before. Power isn't lost the way I see it...you've gained some if anything. If I get Phil's posts right he thinks power has been lost by leaving the ground...whether the player did it deliberately or as a byproduct (correct me if I have misunderstood you Phil). I wonder whether leaving the ground (correctly) doesn't create MORE power than staying down and rooting your feet. I think more....

To deliberately jump in to shots would be a folly in our sport, and I think this is widely understood amongst most coaches.

I think when the ball is waist height or above, top players are likely leaving the ground all the time (not deliberately) due to the amount of leg drive they use. Agassi once said he felt much of the power on his bigger forehands came up from his legs. I wouldn't disagree.

[GeoffWilliams]

Those who ignore load/launch as if it does not exist are the same guys who ignore every advancement in the game, even after most top guys adopt. Raonic, ie, does it on nearly every fh, except while on the dead run. So does the japanese ninja, Nishikori. Perhaps load/launch is a better term than body fly, but body fly is so descriptive I like it more.

One of the main weak points of many pros is their transition net game, as they don't body fly, but hit off a set still position, and lose time/territory/pace/rpm. Those who body fly into transition, do much better at net.