The "Body Fly" shot - a Fantasy

[gzhpcu]

Quoting from ITF "Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis", Bruce Elliot, et al.

Groundstrokes use Ground Reaction Forces and Trunk Rotation. The square stance uses both, the open stance only the latter.

Like in the serve, the linear momentum during the groundstrokes begins with a Ground Force...studies have shown that players shift their weight from back-foot to the front-foot prior to impact as they push-off with the back foot. This weight transfer and push-off with the back-foot is primarily used to generate horizontal linear momentum in the direction of the shot.

It seems to me that extreme push off with the rear foot (and the body lifting up) could be a consequence of extreme horizontal linear momentum being generated.

They go on to say that there is not enough research on the whole subject.

[don_budge]

The Stan Wawrinka Backhand...

Ok…so you cannot actually play the game. Plus you have never taught anyone how to play. You are questioning my methodology? Utter nonsense. You actually have no first hand experience in the game of tennis. Come to Ukraine? You come to Sweden? What are you getting at? More nonsense.

I am currently teaching over a hundred people how to play tennis. All ages…all levels. Men and women…boys and girls. Thursday night after work…I dismantled a very nice 41 year old player who is also training cross country skiing. He's in great shape and used to play at a high level here in the Swedish junior program. I sort of surprised myself how well I played…it's a natural high to be so good. He was all smiles when he came to the net to shake my hand after the old man gave him a nice little playing lesson…free of charge I might add. For the love of the game.

You are questioning my knowledge? Come on hot_dog…you and me one on one. Bring your racquet and one of the big suitcases full of money that you claim to have. Put your money where your big mouth is. You've got a lot of nerve…I'll give you that. But that is all. I bet you don't get a game from me. I'd love to listen to you ridicule me after the shellacking that I give you.

The thing that surprised me about how well I played against my younger, faster and stronger opponent is the backhand that I was employing. I have a copy of John's article in my little modest office that I have been studying and thinking about. My backhand is what made me so happy! Really happy!

Plus the fact that I served numerous aces…imagine even at my age. Aces! But I have a "perfect" service motion. Frictionless…like a well greased roller coaster. I know that it is perfect so all I have to do is throw the ball at the right spot and wait until my racquet starts to fall behind me before I let the motion go.

There is absolutely no sane reason for me to go off to the Ukraine. I am very happy where I am at…at the wonderful little club by the lake. Thanks for the invite anyways. By the way…I am formally withdrawing my offer to help "your kid". Let's just pretend it never happened.

Also by the way…I don't criticise your methodology. It may just work. There isn't any one "holy grail" here. I never claimed there was. I have a paradigm…it is unique and I have never heard of another coach say something to that effect. I am truly a trail blazer in that regard.

Gee…this has been fun hockeyscout. But let's just give it a rest now…we don't want to make the natives restless. Know what I mean?

[10splayer]

Quoting from ITF "Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis", Bruce Elliot, et al.

Groundstrokes use Ground Reaction Forces and Trunk Rotation. The square stance uses both, the open stance only the latter.



It seems to me that extreme push off with the rear foot (and the body lifting up) could be a consequence of extreme horizontal linear momentum being generated.

They go on to say that there is not enough research on the whole subject.

Linear momentum, however, can be expressed in any direction. So a better explanation (IMO) is that vertical linear momentum is the principle reason for "body fly".

Linear momentum is present across all stance permutation. It is a catalyst in the increase and efficiency of angular momentum (the real RHS producer), which (i think) is tennischiro's point. And i agree.

[10splayer]

That is what I said, its all about doing a wide variety of things with many shots in many situations as it will relate to winning a point. Body fly will be a big part in woman's tennis as points need to be won quickly, its a five shot game at the most, and it needs to be a big part of how you play if you are big and want to play serve and volley, or get into the net fast, which is our game. I call it a transition game, tennis' version of the LA Lakers fast break. Thats our style of tennis!

The women are already playing a "first strike" type of game. The men's game has evolved from that....

[stotty]

Nuke 'em...

The women are already playing a "first strike" type of game. The men's game has evolved from that....

The problem with first strike mentality I feel is the player is expecting (there's an arrogance to the mentality) to play on their own terms, which is not possible against smarter opponents who have other ideas. It's a stubborn mentality to alter with juniors once they get it in their heads.

[10splayer]

The problem with first strike mentality I feel is the player is expecting (there's an arrogance to the mentality) to play on their own terms, which is not possible against smarter opponents who have other ideas. It's a stubborn mentality to alter with juniors once they get it in their heads.

Yes, you're right Stotty. The idea that one can totally control (at all times) and dictate the play has been the folly. What we've seen on the men's side, esp with the big three, is an incredible balance between offensive and defensive skills, chiefly in the movement department. These three can unleash moving in any direction, defend, recover, neutralize, etc better then anyone else.

The truth is, the girls are so one dimensional. (comparatively) They have a forward gear, and that's about it. First person to hurt an opponent usually wins. No ability to consistently neutralize and turn defense to offense. The future women's champion will be able to hit the ball moving backwards as well as they do moving forward (like Nadal) . Have the lateral movement/striking abilities like Fed, and ability to play shots from awkward positions like DJoker. At least in relative terms.

In other words, in much the same way the big three have separated themselves from the pack over the last few years.

Least that's how I see it.

[GeoffWilliams]

Those who believe in themselves are the most stubborn. It's the ones who lose belief due to bad results that quit. Sampras lost 19 times in a row when he switched to a one hander. That would have killed belief in almost anyone. It did not kill his.

[gzhpcu]

Rick Macci on jumping...

http://tennisresources.com/index.cfm...idid=2250&rv=1

[tennis_chiro]

I am wrong about Del Potro having both feet on the ground

Found some clips of Del Potro's big forehands. He does leave the ground, but in the way Stotty and Phil are advocating; he does not launch himself at the ball, his upward momentum simply takes him off the ground; please notice his head is moving very little forward as he does this.

At the US Open with Federer in 2009:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RcxYFBOehU&spfreload=10

Against Nadal in Shanghai in 2013:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ5LmhRCOUY&spfreload=10

and watch these highlights of him against Nadal in Indian Wells final 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMpz07g3uhU

I still think it is amazing how well Murray and Djokovic were able to stabilize their feet and their heads before hitting the ball in these exchanges in the Aussie final, even if their feet do leave the ground on their big forehands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WRJUtLZUiU

don

[johnyandell]

Rick was a good player. Never tried the circuit but one of if not the best players in the state where he grew up.

[don_budge]

Rick Macci…the tennis player

Rick was a good player. Never tried the circuit but one of if not the best players in the state where he grew up.

Thanks John for clearing that up. What state is "slick_rick" from? How old is he? He appears to be about the same age as you and I.

Rick Macci on jumping...

http://tennisresources.com/index.cfm...idid=2250&rv=1

[stotty]

Found some clips of Del Potro's big forehands. He does leave the ground, but in the way Stotty and Phil are advocating; he does not launch himself at the ball, his upward momentum simply takes him off the ground; please notice his head is moving very little forward as he does this.

At the US Open with Federer in 2009:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RcxYFBOehU&spfreload=10

Against Nadal in Shanghai in 2013:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ5LmhRCOUY&spfreload=10

and watch these highlights of him against Nadal in Indian Wells final 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMpz07g3uhU

I still think it is amazing how well Murray and Djokovic were able to stabilize their feet and their heads before hitting the ball in these exchanges in the Aussie final, even if their feet do leave the ground on their big forehands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WRJUtLZUiU

don

Those two forehands in the first clip are something else. It's one thing to be stabilised and hit shots like that but to hit with so much power running wide with the your weight moving laterally as in those two shots is nothing short of incredible. He must be awfully strong as well.

As don_budge has said countless times, it's all about positioning. When you watch Murray and Djokovic move like that and get in position it's a sight to behold, and a reminder that perhaps most other players on the tour, Nadal and Federer excepted, cannot do it quite as well.

Murray at this year's Aussie Open was moving better than he has ever done before. He trimmed his weight a little and getting that little bit lighter has made a difference. I notice Nadal has opted for trimming down a bit too. It's perhaps become about finding your optimum weight...which Djokovic has had all along.

[klacr]

Thanks John for clearing that up. What state is "slick_rick" from? How old is he? He appears to be about the same age as you and I.

Rick Macci is from Ohio.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

Rick Macci…aka slick_rick

Rick Macci is from Ohio.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Thanks klacr…very interesting. Ohio…I was born in Toledo and went to college at Ohio University. Even though I lived in Michigan most of my life. Rick looks to be about my age and he almost seems to be familiar. I am really interested in some biographical information on him but was unable to find anything on the internet. I think I will give him a call.

I like this guy. Now I like him even more. If you have any more info on him please share.

[hockeyscout]

don_budge, the tennis coach who's kids can't play!

So tell me, where did Nick Bolletieri, Peter Graf, Richard Williams, Mike Agassi, Wayne Bryant, Toni Nadal, Walter Bartoli, Pete Fisher and Patrick Mouratoglou play?