Standford University Graphic on Serve

[gzhpcu]

Players should try to generate as much linear momentum as possible. The linear momentum developed in the vertical direction promotes the "up and out" impact of the racket on the ball. The linear momentum in the horizontal direction forwards is needed for the development of horizontal racket velocity.

The foot back serving technique develops more forward momentum. The foot up serving technique develops more upward momentum.

If on developing vertical momentum you leave the ground before impact, you get less linear momentum (loss power).

That is what Braden meant about hitting the serve will still in contact with the ground. Lifting off later is OK...

All this is described in the ITF book I mentioned...

[klacr]

As useful as a grave robber in a crematorium

As much use as an ashtray on a motorbike

As useless as a carpet fitters ladder

As useful as a one armed trapeze artist with an itchy arse

About as much use as a one legged cat trying to bury a turd on a frozen lake

As much use as mudguards on a tortoise

As much use as a one legged man at an arse kicking competition

As much use as Captain Hook at a gynaecologists convention

As much use as a trap door on a lifeboat



"Too Much Information"…The Police 1981

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SepLpUGn_O0

Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane
Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane

I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh
I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh

Overkill
Overview
Over my dead body
Over me
Over you
Over everybody

Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane
Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane

I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh
I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh

Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane
Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane

I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh
I've seen the whole world six times over
Sea of Japan to the Cliffs of Dover
Oh

Overkill
Overview
Over my dead body
Over me
Over you
Over everybody

Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane
Too much information running through my brain
Too much information driving me insane
[to fade]

What does this have to do with the price of salt?

Just being ironic…this is of some interest to somebody but I highly doubt that it will enlighten anyone about the mechanics of the service motion. I can do the math…but it seems to me that takes the art and the beauty out of the darned thing. Too much information. As useless as tits on a bull.

Great song choice don_budge. You know how much I love the trio of Gordon Sumner, Andy Summers and Stewart Copeland.

Phil, These charts and graphs are interesting, for the right type of mind. But for me personally I can't translate that info into actually stepping on court and doing it and feeling it. Because that's what I'd rather do. Maybe my University of Michigan education just didn't teach me enough? Analyzing the serve in this regard can be pretty cool, if you can translate it to the court or understand its full implications. I'm glad we have people like you and tennis_chiro on here to break it down for us. Way more advanced than I'll ever be.
Thanks for sharing. I'm always learning. Always getting better.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[gzhpcu]

I find it intellectually interesting.

My favorite approach, though, is John's "Visual Tennis" approach.

[stotty]

Great song choice don_budge. You know how much I love the trio of Gordon Sumner, Andy Summers and Stewart Copeland.

Phil, These charts and graphs are interesting, for the right type of mind. But for me personally I can't translate that info into actually stepping on court and doing it and feeling it. Because that's what I'd rather do. Maybe my University of Michigan education just didn't teach me enough? Analyzing the serve in this regard can be pretty cool, if you can translate it to the court or understand its full implications. I'm glad we have people like you and tennis_chiro on here to break it down for us. Way more advanced than I'll ever be.
Thanks for sharing. I'm always learning. Always getting better.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

We're on the same page. Beyond a certain point I get lost with this stuff. I'm just too thick to process it. I like to leave this stuff to the likes of Brian Gordon who can then turn it into English...in terms of coaching positions that I can understand. That said, it's nice to know the deeper science if you have the brain for it...I don't.

[gzhpcu]

Basically, the bottom line is that the serve is a combination of many components in a multi-link system. A combination of groundforces, torque, etc. It shows why there is variation among the pros, placing more emphasis on certain parts than on others, and still getting a powerful serve. As discussed previously, Wawrinka does not have that much shoulder turn, but makes up for it with other components.

Every pro serve is a selection of components. To combine all is probably impossible.

[klacr]

Phil,

It is intellectually stimulating. Makes me think. but not for too long because smoke starts escaping through my ears.

The brains and the brawn. C'mon Phil. Let's make lots of money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Ieq9bEyLA

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[tennis_chiro]

When I talk to a player about their strokes, I want to use terms like "load and release"; I certainly wouldn't say externally rotate at the shoulder to gain greater potential internal rotation on your serve. On the other hand, I want them to know that there is such a thing as an "SSC" and they should feel that potentiation happening at the beginning of their fh foreward swing and I want them to understand that does not mean "snap your wrist" at your forehand.

I want to understand what is going on so that I can relay the appropriate information to my students. Brian Gordon's articles are great for gaining that understanding. Then I have to find a way to communicate that to my students. JY's approach to learning seems to be more appropriate at that point.

But there are also still a lot of questions that I feel remain unanswered and I feel there are a lot of false answers already out there. For example, I'm convinced there is too much emphasis on leg drive when players have not adequately mastered the basic kinetic chain and balance. There is not nearly enough emphasis on the importance of the weight-transfer as a means of establishing a consistent and repeatable rhythm for the service toss; I don't seem to find many other voices expressing this opinion, but I am convinced. The kind of information in the Stanford study doesn't answer that question, but it could be informative as regards whether or not jumping is actually contributing to actual increased racket head and ultimately ball speed. What about measuring how much the wrist actually flexes or the rate of wrist flexion before, during and after contact on the serve. That classic picture of Sampras with arm up and racket head down just after meeting the ball is not achieved by deliberate wrist flexion, but by complete relaxation...oops, there I go again...just my opinion, but we could learn that kind of thing from this kind of data.

HockeyScout thinks his daughter is going to revolutionize the game or at least ride the revolution to the next generation of technique advancement by jumping into her shots; I think he's dead wrong on this one. Wouldn't it be nice if there was some scientific, biomechanical study that showed whether someone could actually demonstrate significantly greater ball speed by jumping into the shot (it better be significantly greater because it seems to me it has to impact consistency and accuracy negatively, but that should be tested as well). Playing the ball earlier and on the rise might be part of the future, but jumping into the shot at the same time, ... I'm very doubtful.

Those are just some of the questions we need the biomechanists to address. But as much as we have difficulty understanding the scientific jargon and rigamarole, the biomechanists need us to give them some direction as to which questions they should be trying to answer so we know better what to teach.

Sure, the space program gave us Tang because there was a very direct need they had to address in putting people in space, but all the things we got from the Apollo Project that we couldn't even imagine came from basic research that had implications that no one could even imagine back in the 60's. We don't need to go to the moon, but there are a lot of questions that some good science could help us to address as we try to make the game more enjoyable for more people as well as more ridiculous for the most elite athletes.

Just 3 or 4 years ago, I had no idea what the Type III ATP forehand was; I had a good idea of what I wanted a beginner to start off with, but that was based on my opinion. Now I think I am giving my students the absolute best information when I try to get them started. The stroke I teach is only changed slightly, but I have great confidence in what I am advocating; I can back it up with Tennisplayer videos. It's a good feeling to be so confident of what I am trying to get my students to do; ... even if they still don't always listen

don

[GeoffWilliams]

All the best atp pros jump into their fh. Their bh, a different story, and the average speed of their bh is usually 10-15mph slower due to that difference alone.

Body fly ground strokes will become just like side ways serves, with speeds above 100mph common and ordinary.

[gzhpcu]

While interested in understanding the forces involved in a serve, and understanding which configuration a particular pro server uses, for my own use, I like using video analysis. Using Ubersense on iPad, for example, and analyzing what I want to change and then checking to see if I am really doing it (which is not always the case...).

[tennis_chiro]

Body fly is a fantasy

All the best atp pros jump into their fh. Their bh, a different story, and the average speed of their bh is usually 10-15mph slower due to that difference alone.

Body fly ground strokes will become just like side ways serves, with speeds above 100mph common and ordinary.

Let's go to the videotape!
You can make a case for jumping into the shot with Del Potro here on a short ball:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Juan_DelPotro_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/JD_FH_Short&stroke=FH%20Short%20NeutralStance%20Side1%20240fps.mp4

But I think a more representative picture of him hitting a ball that he has all the time he needs to set up on is a neutral stance where he had enough time to step in

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Juan_DelPotro_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/JD_FH_Center&stroke=FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Side1%20240fps.mp4

or here

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Juan_DelPotro_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/JD_FH_Center&stroke=FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Side2%20240fps.mp4

I think the side view gives you the best chance to judge how much he is moving forward as he hits the ball. If you check open stance clips, there is even less forward movement.
But let's check someone who is more mobile like Federer. Unfortunately, we only have the rear view on the neutral stance, but notice the left foot through the contact zone.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Center&stroke=RFFHCenterNeutralStanceRear_250fps.mp4

Check a side view of an open stance and note the leg drive upward, but the still anchoring of the head and eyes

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Center&stroke=RFFHCenterOpenStanceSide2_500fps.mp4

Here's one of Roger running into a short ball with a neutral stance and he is moving forward as he hits it, but he is not "jumping into the shot"

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Short&stroke=RFFHShortSide2_250fps.mp4

Another short ball that Roger has enough time to step into in front of the baseline. I think this is more representative of what he wants to do

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Short&stroke=RFFHShortNeutralStanceSide1_500fps.mp4

Take Rafa on one of the few balls where he hits with a neutral stance in an attacking mode

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Rafael_Nadal_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RN_FH_Center&stroke=RN%20FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Side1%20500fps.mp4

Here's a good example of Rafa on a neutral stance short ball when he is clearly in the air hitting the ball and attacking, but I don't think he is "jumping into the shot"

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Rafael_Nadal_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RN_FH_Short&stroke=RN%20FH%20Short%20NeutralStance%20Side1%20500fps.mp4

Again, I think the following would be more representative of what Rafa wants to do

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Rafael_Nadal_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RN_FH_Short&stroke=RN%20FH%20Short%20NeutralStance%20Side2%20500fps.mp4

Look at how much he moved forward to attack this ball and yet he stabilizes himself before he hits the shot in this shot listed as an open stance short forehand. He's actually slowing down his forward movement to stabilize himself as he hits this shot; granted he is in the air and still moving forward, but the intention is to rotate about a semi-stable axis converting the force of his legs into power the racket can apply to the ball

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Rafael_Nadal_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RN_FH_Short&stroke=RN%20FH%20Short%20OpenStance%20Side1%20500fps.mp4

And here is Djokovic. (Sorry, no neutral stance side views of Novak in Center Forehand)

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/ND_FH_Center&stroke=ND%20FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Rear%20250fps.mp4

Here's Novak in a side view on the attack on an open stance forehand

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/ND_FH_Center&stroke=ND%20FH%20Center%20OpenStance%20Side1%20250fps.mp4

Here's Novak on a short ball he is attacking 2 yards inside the baseline. Please notice the stability of his head and how little the left foot moves forward as he hits the ball.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/ND_FH_Short&stroke=ND%20FH%20Short%20Side2%20250fps.mp4

And here is a rear view of a short ball Novak had time, according to JY, to set up for in a neutral stance

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Novak_Djokovic_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/ND_FH_Short&stroke=ND%20FH%20Short%20NeutralStance%20Rear1%20250fps.mp4

Or best of all, take the ball striking (at least in the first 2 sets) in the recent Aussie final between Djokovic and Murray

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WRJUtLZUiU

Perhaps you prefer the first four sets of Wawrinka/Djokovic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CrZ8Rk83Zg

It's not fair to put HS's daughter up here for comparison, but what she is trying to do is very different from the clear upward leg drive these players are using to give their shots power in these examples of the very best the game has produced in groundstroke mechanics. Del Potro was timed at nearly 120 mph on one of his forehands. But it was no "body fly" shot. At least not where he was generating speed with the linear speed he was gaining by jumping forward as he was hitting the ball. He may have been extending his legs and driving upward, but he was converting that power into ball velocity by rotating about a fulcrum as fixed as he could make it at the moment. The follow through may have taken him off the ground, but he was not "jumping". Not only is this "body fly" a fantasy, it is a dangerous fantasy because it leads the player down a path to failure. Perhaps HockeyScout is right and there is a whole new game out there ahead of us which I can't see, but I don't see any evidence that these fundamental laws of physics can be violated when the game gets really fast. That is what those final round matches in the Australian, French, Wimbledon and the US Open really show us. For the techniques to hold up under that extreme fire, they can't break the laws of physics. The human body is amazing and it can adapt and compensate and get away with a lot, but when the player on the other side of the net has the laws of physics on his side, you are in big trouble.

don