John's Analysis of Maria Scharapova's serve

[10splayer]

I agree with 10splayer that Pat pretty much nailed it when talking about the lack of chest angle with women servers. So many do their knee bend as if they were getting ready to jump for a rebound, which really prohibits the limbo hip position, chest up posture, that Pat is endorsing. I would like to hear more from 10splayer about the pitfalls of overdoing this Pat endorsed serving posture. I have been watching Wawrinka serve in winning this week's pro tournament, and he is really on point with what Pat is saying. He really does not have a deep knee bend at all, and his hips are positioned as Pat demonstrates in his video.

Stoke, I talked about Wawrinka's serve in his thread..Just a couple of thoughts.

[10splayer]

I agree with 10splayer that Pat pretty much nailed it when talking about the lack of chest angle with women servers. So many do their knee bend as if they were getting ready to jump for a rebound, which really prohibits the limbo hip position, chest up posture, that Pat is endorsing. . I have been watching Wawrinka serve in winning this week's pro tournament, and he is really on point with what Pat is saying. He really does not have a deep knee bend at all, and his hips are positioned as Pat demonstrates in his video.

I would like to hear more from 10splayer about the pitfalls of overdoing this Pat endorsed serving posture

Sorry Stroke, i didn't see and address this question...Here's my 02 cents. There is an optimal level of lateral tilt (chest up). If you look at Gordon's masterpiece he actually displays optimal levels of tilt as they relate to the hitting arm structure. (for optimal internal shoulder rotation and forward angular momentum) Take home point....a little is good, but can be overdone....

Now, lets look at the old timers (before they could leave the ground) and current players. (leaving the ground) The most important thing to understand (IMO) is the difference in the ground reaction force created and the effect that has on the tilt. Chiefly, that the lateral tilt INCREASES as the legs push up, and the greater the force, the more that will be the case.

So when Hoad served, for instance, he would set the optimal chest angle, and because there wasn't a huge push up, that lateral tilt remained pretty constant...the ideal...

However, if you had a guy like Fed set the chest angle to that extreme, and then push, the spine and lateral tilt would become too extreme...Not optimal and risky from an injury point of view..

What i see on video, is the contrast between WHEN players (old vs new) arrive at the proper lateral tilt angle. Hoad and greats, achieve that position right off the bat, and the current players "progress" to that ideal position throughout the leg drive..Example: Look at Fed at the beginning of the "upward drive/ leg extension)..The chest is angle "slightly up" but increases as the legs extend..

I believe that the difference in the upward/ground reaction force is a real factor in these different style packages.

[johnyandell]

10s Player,

That is very well said. Pat is verbally felicitous. (And a good friend.) But not everything he says matches the video evidence...in my opinion.

[10splayer]

10s Player,

That is very well said. Pat is verbally felicitous. (And a good friend.) But not everything he says matches the video evidence...in my opinion.

Yup, I'm always interested in what Pat has to say. And in fairness, I think the video was more in response to the women's serve. And I tend to agree with him, that many of the girls don't ever achieve enough lateral tilt to work the "left" ball toss/inside the hand contact for the spins..

But there's no doubt (based on the video i've seen) that the men are not in the extreme "chest up"/Hoad style at the beginning of the leg drive. The upward force (i believe) is significant, and cause the player to bend the spine backwards to too extreme a measure.

[gzhpcu]

But there's no doubt (based on the video i've seen) that the men are not in the extreme "chest up"/Hoad style at the beginning of the leg drive. The upward force (i believe) is significant, and cause the player to bend the spine backwards to too extreme a measure.

Don't forget that Lew Hoad ruined his back serving this way, and during the head-to-head tour with Gonzales had a back injury which effectively terminated his career.

[stroke]

10splayer, thanks for your thoughts and insight or this chest tilt issue. I see what you are saying about men servers finding this chest tilt position nowadays after the leg thrust. I think some men players still kind of tend to sway toward the Hoad style kind of preset chest tilt position. These to me would be the guys of course without the deeper knee bend, like Wawrinka and Nadal.

[10splayer]

10splayer, thanks for your thoughts and insight or this chest tilt issue. I see what you are saying about men servers finding this chest tilt position nowadays after the leg thrust. I think some men players still kind of tend to sway toward the Hoad style kind of preset chest tilt position. These to me would be the guys of course without the deeper knee bend, like Wawrinka and Nadal.

Stroke,

That would make a lot of sense....

[stroke]

Yup, I'm always interested in what Pat has to say. And in fairness, I think the video was more in response to the women's serve. And I tend to agree with him, that many of the girls don't ever achieve enough lateral tilt to work the "left" ball toss/inside the hand contact for the spins..

But there's no doubt (based on the video i've seen) that the men are not in the extreme "chest up"/Hoad style at the beginning of the leg drive. The upward force (i believe) is significant, and cause the player to bend the spine backwards to too extreme a measure.

I feel like Pat thinks the chest tilt, or chest facing upward stretch, is a key serving ingredient that a lot of top women servers(Sharapova is a classic example) are missing. This chest tilt, after the deep knee bend action on the serve(that 10splayer talked about) is optimal but very difficult for a lot of folks to master(IMO). I feel Pat thinks this chest tilt is a must that may be most easily learned and incorporated with more of a preset chest tilt position prior to the leg thrust.

[stroke]

More by Pat on chest tilt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukRMNLQPtTM

[10splayer]

I feel like Pat thinks the chest tilt, or chest facing upward stretch, is a key serving ingredient that a lot of top women servers(Sharapova is a classic example) are missing. This chest tilt, after the deep knee bend action on the serve(that 10splayer talked about) is optimal but very difficult for a lot of folks to master(IMO). I feel Pat thinks this chest tilt is a must that may be most easily learned and incorporated with more of a preset chest tilt position prior to the leg thrust.

I know exactly what you're saying. As always, tennis is taught based on the case/player in front of you. There have been many times over the years, I've done isolation drills to get player's chests up. That needs to be done sometimes. In general, I think there is an overall misconception as to the way the body rotates on the serve. Least that's been my experience..

But yeah, as I mentioned, these are all valid points you and pat allude to.