John's Analysis of Maria Scharapova's serve

[gzhpcu]

Seems the central point relates to insufficient internal shoulder rotation as mentioned in Stumfel's article.

Also she does not twist her core and point her chest up towards the ball, which the men do. Women focus more on jumping up. Stosur and Serena are exceptions.

Martina Navratilova did it right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkqA_NvvnoU

or watch Martina and Sabatini, both serve beautifully: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSslLj_C7Yg

[johnyandell]

Phil,

Correcto.

[10splayer]

Seems the central point relates to insufficient internal shoulder rotation as mentioned in Stumfel's article.

Also she does not twist her core and point her chest up towards the ball, which the men do. Women focus more on jumping up. Stosur and Serena are exceptions.

Martina Navratilova did it right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkqA_NvvnoU

or watch Martina and Sabatini, both serve beautifully: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSslLj_C7Yg

http://youtu.be/GgdXawklcZk

Seems he agrees with you.

[stotty]

http://youtu.be/GgdXawklcZk

Seems he agrees with you.

Interesting video...

I think Navratilova's serve is still one of the best models out there for women to emulate. It's a lovely, fluid motion.

[10splayer]

Interesting video...

I think Navratilova's serve is still one of the best models out there for women to emulate. It's a lovely, fluid motion.

It's a lovely, simple motion....

Big caveat here, because Gordon goes out of his way to stress this..The lateral tilt (chest angle up) can be overdone, which comes at the expense of function and injury prevention...

But I think PD's basic assumption is a good one, in that the girls don't tend to tilt back and laterally well..which limits there ability to create racquet head speed and as PAT states, work a "broader work space" for the spins. Very few operate well under the conditions of a "left" ball toss.

[stotty]

It's a lovely, simple motion....

Big caveat here, because Gordon goes out of his way to stress this..The lateral tilt (chest angle up) can be overdone, which comes at the expense of function and injury prevention...

But I think PD's basic assumption is a good one, in that the girls don't tend to tilt back and laterally well..which limits there ability to create racquet head speed and as PAT states, work a "broader work space" for the spins. Very few operate well under the conditions of a "left" ball toss.

An amazing example of what PD refers to in his video "chest angle up" in the days of "foot-on-the-ground servers", is right here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DkxpHHnjdA

To a modern server it would likely feel very frustrating not being allowed to drive up off the ground...yet Gonzales could clock 125mph on his first serve. He must have been the exception. You would think most servers couldn't achieve those speeds when having to keep their foot on the ground. Driving up always feels like a big advantage to me.

[10splayer]

An amazing example of what PD refers to in his video "chest angle up" in the days of "foot-on-the-ground servers", is right here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DkxpHHnjdA

To a modern server it would likely feel very frustrating not being allowed to drive up off the ground...yet Gonzales could clock 125mph on his first serve. He must have been the exception. You would think most servers couldn't achieve those speeds when having to keep their foot on the ground. Driving up always feels like a big advantage to me.

http://youtu.be/B8yZ-PUvz74

You bet...and Lew Hoad.

[don_budge]

The evolution of the service motion...

You bet...and Lew Hoad.

Bill Tilden…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izEbU5u5J-I

Don Budge and Gottfried von Cramm 1937 style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g3oAM9IjDg

From 10splayer…Lew Hoad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8yZ-PUvz74&feature=youtu.be

Four beautiful service motions…Alex Olmedo, Barry McKay, Lew Hoad and Richard Gonzales.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XTR8z5kjWc

Plus "for reasons unknown"…The Killers Live from The Royal Albert Hall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gEBbXWE6DM

[10splayer]

Bill Tilden…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izEbU5u5J-I

Don Budge and Gottfried von Cramm 1937 style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g3oAM9IjDg

From 10splayer…Lew Hoad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8yZ-PUvz74&feature=youtu.be

Four beautiful service motions…Alex Olmedo, Barry McKay, Lew Hoad and Richard Gonzales.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XTR8z5kjWc

Plus "for reasons unknown"…The Killers Live from The Royal Albert Hall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gEBbXWE6DM

A Wonderwall of great servers. The Royal Albert hall. http://youtu.be/Be0zUC4JeUU

[stroke]

I agree with 10splayer that Pat pretty much nailed it when talking about the lack of chest angle with women servers. So many do their knee bend as if they were getting ready to jump for a rebound, which really prohibits the limbo hip position, chest up posture, that Pat is endorsing. I would like to hear more from 10splayer about the pitfalls of overdoing this Pat endorsed serving posture. I have been watching Wawrinka serve in winning this week's pro tournament, and he is really on point with what Pat is saying. He really does not have a deep knee bend at all, and his hips are positioned as Pat demonstrates in his video.

[gzhpcu]

There is more than one way to skin a cat...

[don_budge]

All but one of them is probably wrong...

There is more than one way to skin a cat...

Perhaps there are an infinite ways of skinning a cat and all but one of them is wrong. Or at least Fundamentally Incorrect (FI).

Serving is not "skinning a cat" and one must adhere to some very fundamental concepts if you want a "perfect motion". One that is engineered without any friction in the system. Friction retards.

[gzhpcu]

I agree with 10splayer that Pat pretty much nailed it when talking about the lack of chest angle with women servers. So many do their knee bend as if they were getting ready to jump for a rebound, which really prohibits the limbo hip position, chest up posture, that Pat is endorsing. I would like to hear more from 10splayer about the pitfalls of overdoing this Pat endorsed serving posture. I have been watching Wawrinka serve in winning this week's pro tournament, and he is really on point with what Pat is saying. He really does not have a deep knee bend at all, and his hips are positioned as Pat demonstrates in his video.

Yes, Stan doesn't jump much either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xmJO_ZUtWU

[stotty]

Yes, Stan doesn't jump much either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xmJO_ZUtWU

This is a warm up serve, surely. He's just stroking the ball in...relatively. I tried to look in the archive for Stan but his clips aren't working.

[don_budge]

The Fundamentally Lacking Stanislas Wawrinka Service Motion...

This is a warm up serve, surely. He's just stroking the ball in...relatively. I tried to look in the archive for Stan but his clips aren't working.

I think that Stan Wawrinka's service motion is fundamentally lacking…it is obvious. Something doesn't look quite right to the eye.

This from the Interactive Forum for February 2014 Stan Wawrinka:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2566&highlight=stan+wawrinka+interactive+forum

Fantastic video clip, John. It ranks right up there with your last offering of the Tim Henman serve and volley. I really like it when the Interactive Forum is a sequence of shots...it gives us a glimpse into multiple aspects of a players total game as well as possibly being able to cypher something of their tactical play. Great job as usual...thank you very much.

A serve, a defensive forehand, a defensive backhand...and so on and so forth. Regards the camera angle and view...not bad. The only thing else that I would like to see is the rest of the court...the other side of the court. In order to fully comprehend the exchange between the two players. It’s a great clip...there is a lot going on and a lot to discuss. Much like the Tim Henman serve and volley clip. Here we have a Stanislas Wawrinka backcourt exchange clip. Excellent!


The Serve...of Stanislas Wawrinka

It’s an odd motion and it doesn’t make any sense to my eye. The back foot moving forwards when the weight should be shifting backwards totally screws up the timing when the whole package should be unwinding and the racquet head screaming towards the ball.

From the set up position he has set himself up to go in the wrong direction. Stan has the racquet set forwards but his weight is almost entirely on his back foot. His front foot is balanced fully on the heel. The hands go down together and up together with a real sense of synchronicity...but that is where the synergy ends. My God...it is a strange motion. Once his hands are risen to shoulder height, his front foot has now planted itself squarely on the ground which indicates that the weight transfer has gone forwards...also evidenced by the right heel up in the air. At this point deep into his backswing his weight should be following the head of the racquet and the weight should be squarely on the back foot. So what strange compensating move must he make to go forwards now?

Ok...the strange plot thickens. Now the back foot has made a rather unorthodox move into the pin-point stance and he is standing virtually straight up with absolutely zero rotation of his shoulders. Without any discernible further rotation of his shoulders from a position where he is perpendicular to the net he starts to rotate forwards as his racquet is dropping into position behind him. As a result of his unorthodox footwork he is in a position with his racquet dropped behind him and he is virtually in a full frontal position. I have always had the sensation that there was something disturbingly wrong with this service motion but without studying it frame by frame it was never clear as to what was actually wrong with it.

Here is just one more top elite tennis player in the modern game of tennis with some rather glaring deficiencies in the service motion. You know what a big part of the problem is...of course you do. Service motions nowadays are not designed or engineered to be followed to the net. As a result there is a lot of room for liberal interpretation as to what constitutes an effective motion.

The fix for Stanislas is to change to a platform stance. In this manner he will shift his weight back to the back foot as the racquet backswings into position at the top. By assuming a platform stance he won’t have the ass-backwards concept of weight transfer going on so he can more effectively rotate his body backwards...as a result of a more effective rotation backwards he will have stored up enough potential energy to go forwards that will entirely change his way of thinking how he delivers the racquet head to the ball. He will get his legs under him. Once he is there...he will have more effective capability to spin the ball in various ways which will open up his book of service tactics. Interesting that there is so much potential to be realized in one of the world’s most elite players.

When working on my students service motions I have come to the conclusion that it is very important that they are designed as if the player will be following the serve to the net...even though in most cases they will not be. So I have them train in serve and volley mode as a drill to get the proper rotation and feeling that they are rotating into the ball properly. It certainly is ironic that I believe that the champion of this years 2014 Australian Open could benefit from a thirty dollar tennis lesson from a displaced American who is coaching at a small little club in the middle of nowhere of Sweden. Am I hallucinating again?

By the way...yesterday it was the comely Estonian that I trained with the Pancho Segura forehand and backhand who was serving and volleying. The service motion is abbreviated at this point...as you can imagine the lack of natural feeling for the service motion. So both hands raise together from the starting position and we try for a rotation of the shoulders and get the racquet into some semblance of a drop position. From here it is rotate back to the ball with the back foot swinging into the court followed by two quick steps and a shortstop position stop split step (I don’t care for the term split step for some reason)...and then I feed volleys to simulate the volley and close on the net aspect of the serve and volley tactic. It worked out really well. I explain that this is an advanced tactic and technique that may be eventually a part of doubles play. She looks at me with those big blue eyes and nods her head slowly in silence...not a word. The word compliant comes to mind.

You know...if Stanislas had followed this particular serve into the net he would have been making an aggressive volley instead of backing up and playing a defensive forehand.

Next...the rest of the video clip analysis.

At least that is how I would skin this particular cat.