A brilliant post by John Yandell yesterday ...

[hockeyscout]

John Yandell made a great post here the other day.

He stated:

"There is some kid out there that doesn't know he is not supposed to be able to hit heavy topspin out of the air off his shoe laces."

[johnyandell]

HS,

Well I stole that idea from the guy who invented spaghetti strings... but I believe that if net attack is going to come back, it will be driven by swinging volleys. Not that conventional volleys will disappear.

The problem as discussed in the slice thread is that it is very difficult with the new strings and the physical gifts of the top players in this era to create regular sustained pressure coming to the net. Yeah a few passes were part of the game in the old s and v days but players could by in large count on holding serve routinely coming in behind every first serve and many or most seconds.

Now with the rackets and the strings and the strength of the players and the slow courts that seems impossible. The velocity of the serves actually works against the server--they hit 130mph and can only get half way to the service line before a screaming 3000rpm return is on their shoes.

It used to be also that a short ball could be hit with a hard relatively flat slice and create the same type of percentage winning pressure.

Now the slice and the conventional volleys just don't do it in terms of a regular strategy. It's situational at best.

Could someone who absolutely blasted swinging topspin first volleys get ahead in points far enough to shift the balance and attack regularly? I think it's very likely. Now the strings are working in favor of the attacker not against him (or her...)

And you can already see this intermittently with some of the top players. I saw both Novak and Andy serve and finish with a swinging first volley at Wimbledon. I have seen Fed do it too. Serena and Sharapova do it though off the ground. It's just that no one has taken the step of making it a consistent strategic option.

[johnyandell]

OK then!

[hockeyscout]

Its good, or bad, or is their anything you'd add into the mix?

[johnyandell]

HS,

The honest truth is I am not (nor want to be...) a development coach. Really hard to get an overall feel for what you are doing except it's obvious you are passionate, hard working, and open minded.

[don_budge]

Court speed factor…is trump

Well I stole that idea from the guy who invented spaghetti strings... but I believe that if net attack is going to come back, it will be driven by swinging volleys. Not that conventional volleys will disappear.

The problem as discussed in the slice thread is that it is very difficult with the new strings and the physical gifts of the top players in this era to create regular sustained pressure coming to the net. Yeah a few passes were part of the game in the old s and v days but players could by in large count on holding serve routinely coming in behind every first serve and many or most seconds.

Now with the rackets and the strings and the strength of the players and the slow courts that seems impossible. The velocity of the serves actually works against the server--they hit 130mph and can only get half way to the service line before a screaming 3000rpm return is on their shoes.

It used to be also that a short ball could be hit with a hard relatively flat slice and create the same type of percentage winning pressure.

Now the slice and the conventional volleys just don't do it in terms of a regular strategy. It's situational at best.

Could someone who absolutely blasted swinging topspin first volleys get ahead in points far enough to shift the balance and attack regularly? I think it's very likely. Now the strings are working in favor of the attacker not against him (or her...)

And you can already see this intermittently with some of the top players. I saw both Novak and Andy serve and finish with a swinging first volley at Wimbledon. I have seen Fed do it too. Serena and Sharapova do it though off the ground. It's just that no one has taken the step of making it a consistent strategic option.

The single mitigating factor is the speed of the courts. Speed of the courts is trump. Faster courts will nullify the advantage of string and the stronger grips…the rest. The Roswellian slice will lay down just like it is supposed to. It is a physical impossibility to hit topspin off of the shoelaces on a sliding ball…not consistently at least. Better to practice avoiding such a shot by taking it earlier or later.

[johnyandell]

DB,

Faster courts would help but if this was categorically true you would still see more net attack at Wimbledon. Even though the grass is slower now, Fed and others have said they still hit with more less spin at Wimbledon than anywhere else. But it's just not enough difference to make up for the changes in strings, technique and athleticism. Maybe the slick silver cement courts I grew up on in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or wood... What's seems impossible today is often the norm tomorrow.

[hockeyscout]

DB, What's seems impossible today is often the norm tomorrow.

Right on the money. Words to develop by!

[johnyandell]

Doesn't mean I am right about swinging volleys, but I very well might be.

[GeoffWilliams]

I use the swinging volley uni grip, a full western off both sides as well as the continental grip. I've never seen anyone else do that. After serving with the continental, I change to the uni sometimes, if the opponent is putting short balls at my feet.

[don_budge]

Speculation of "Play of the Future"…think 2001

The single mitigating factor is the speed of the courts. Speed of the courts is trump. Faster courts will nullify the advantage of string and the stronger grips…the rest. The Roswellian slice will lay down just like it is supposed to. It is a physical impossibility to hit topspin off of the shoelaces on a sliding ball…not consistently at least. Better to practice avoiding such a shot by taking it earlier or later.

JY...

Regarding the speed of the courts and the effect it has on match play. Mats Wilander was saying that the speed of the courts at the Australian Open are playing faster and even quicker than last year when it was observable that things had actually picked up in speed. Doug Eng was physically there and confirmed as much…last year.

But the comment that Mats made regarding the Roger Federer forehand is one question that always is in my mind when considering the effects of low skidding balls on the strong gripped ATP3 forehand (as popularly named by Brian Gordon). Mats said that the court may have actually favoured Andreas Seppi as Federer tends to mishit forehands at times…particularly on low skidding balls.

It's an interesting question if you consider the overall scope of the game…when speculating about play in the future. If the courts are quickened…your examples of the "silver" cement of Tulsa and wood courts bring back memories of similar scenarios back in Michigan at a similar time in tennis history…it will have a major tilting effect on the current paradigm. Things will resort back to the days of this match between Pete Sampras and Roger Federer which is right around the time when the ITF started to monkey around with the speed of the courts and made it a sort of "Uni-Court game" when the different surfaces all play the same…virtually speaking. The polystring effect may soon have begun to play havoc with things as well.

Sampras and Federer played this sort of game so perfectly on a slick grass court at Wimbledon that it was deemed to be of low entertainment value because of the short nature of the points. The points went along the lines of…serve and maybe a return. I think that the entire first set averaged points of less that two shots. One volley perhaps to shore things up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E4Qlrll0GE

The beefed up grass is certainly some super hybrid as it plays like a "velcro" surface. While the speed may be slightly faster than the clay at Roland Garros the height of the bounce may nearly be the same. The height of the bounce is nearly as important as the speed. I propose a study for Brian Gordon on the effectiveness of the ATP3 forehand on slick sliding courts as opposed to the retarded, higher bouncing balls of modern court surfaces.

The ATP3 forehand is certainly an adaption to slower, higher bouncing surfaces as well as the bigger racquet face surfaces that make it less important to hit the precise centre of a smaller hitting surface. The best tact to take when anticipating the game of the future is ironically probably the classic game that more or less prepares one for any and all eventualities. In saying this one must take into account the racquet and court technologies and all of the possible permutations and combinations…including it's effect on tennis technique.

Maybe the slick silver cement courts I grew up on in Tulsa, Oklahoma, or wood... What's seems impossible today is often the norm tomorrow.

I seriously doubt any radical departures from the same basic fundamentals when executing volleys that have been used since virtually day one…you have shown some examples of Bill Tilden "wiping" the ball. The more things change the more they stay the same. This is very true when discussing trends in tennis play. They used to talk at length about the trends that swung from backcourt play to attacking tennis. Interesting, fascinating conversation…interesting in the sense that you from your classic roots in Tulsa make room for the possibility of swinging volleys being the norm in the future. That thoughtful aspect alone certainly makes the gist of this food for thought.

[hockeyscout]

5 tool player

Mats Wilander:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6QHksg4B2c

Mats knows his stuff!

[johnyandell]

DB,

Speculation is often and usually wrong, at the very least to some extent...because the future always surprises...the only thing I feel sure of is that players in the future will evolve the game in ways we didn't imagine when we were playing on the sliver slick courts with wood rackets and gut strings...

[johnyandell]

Not sure you can create a system. It's something that just evolves as the player develops. The best that can be done and again I am not a developmental coach is to give the best information available and then see what the player makes of it or evolves on his own--or not. No one told Mac to stand sideways on his serve. No one told Pete to close the face on the fh backswing (in fact the opposite) etc etc.

15 number ones in 25 years that is interesting! But I don't think its Raonic or Dimitrov next.

[hockeyscout]

Not sure you can create a system. It's something that just evolves as the player develops. The best that can be done and again I am not a developmental coach is to give the best information available and then see what the player makes of it or evolves on his own--or not. No one told Mac to stand sideways on his serve. No one told Pete to close the face on the fh backswing (in fact the opposite) etc etc.

15 number ones in 25 years that is interesting! But I don't think its Raonic or Dimitrov next.

Yes, a season end number one, once in every blue moon!