A Forehand In Need of a Drop

[don_budge]

Greatness…and potential

I think that the proper fundamental developmental base for the forehand is a flatter stroke where you can adapt and build onto.

His forehand will probably never get much better than it is now without some fundamental change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCGTbqT-im8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osnpBCjAyC0

The amazing thing about both of these drills is the dialogue opportunities that you have with the student to illustrate different fundamental components of the swing.

One of the dialogue opportunities might just be the case for getting the feet into proper position otherwise it is going to be a very ugly drill. The next dialogue opportunity that would make all of the logical sense in the world is to maneuverer that racquet head to come from below the ball in order to get the ball to arch when play gets closer in to the net…getting the ball over the net and building in some margin for error to boot. Topspin.

I'm far from great but will gladly take the compliment.

My posting of my forehand was singlehandedly the best thing that ever happened to that shot.

tennis_chiro is a great coach so I know he will no doubt take these tips and helpful suggestions and put them to good use. Cartier seems like a highly engaged and intelligent kid. I have confidence he can grasp and duplicate what you are trying to get him to do. It's just going to take him the realization that it starts with the feet first.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Greatness in a human being begins in the heart…where all true greatness comes from…my Friend.

I echo the thought about tennis_chiro's "greatness"…even with regard to his "humanness". The kid has an interesting foundation to build upon…a flat forehand that he can really pound. The comment I made about it "never getting better" is interesting…because the flip side is this stroke has all kinds of potential. The foundation is there…and aching to be built upon. But what stands in the way is change.

Always keep in mind…what our wise and astute member charlesdarwin said…

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change."

Adaptable to change…not the strongest or the most intelligent. Or even the one that hits the hardest.

"See me change…" -Jim Morrison (The Changeling).

[klacr]

This young Cartier does a couple of things that are forever going to encourage him to hit flat and one of them is his racquet head's approach to the ball. Like the great Kyle LaCroix down there in southern Florida his racquet head doesn't drop below the ball and like Kyle a lot of it has to do with his stance and his footwork. A couple of other coaches have noticed some similarity to Kyle's forehand.

Your student plays with an exaggerated (in my book) western forehand grip and he makes constant use of the open stance as his default position. Between these two dynamic issues it is going to encourage him to do exactly what he is doing until the cows come home unless he makes at least on fundamental change. No matter how many times you tell him he will still not "feel" what it is you are trying to get him to do.

In a couple of his hitting sequences he hits with a very nice closed or semi-closed stance and makes what appears to me to be a very nice pass at the ball. Much more forward emphasis and less backward emphasis, to borrow from the worldsbesttenniscoach vernacular. Maybe not with all of the outrageous speed of the exaggerated open variety but a very nice controlled swing that has a lot of potential…going forwards. His forehand will probably never get much better than it is now without some fundamental change.

That change I believe will begin with is how he places his feet. I would start him out with this drill that was filmed at the "Kings of Tennis" symposium that I attended in Stockholm, Sweden last year. Bob Brett took this 15 year old boy onto the court and worked him over for nearly an hour and it was a pretty amazing display of coaching as his one hour lesson took this fellow through virtually every inch of the court and every variety of stroke with very little "technique instruction" from Bob.

Check this drill out…I was going to recommend it to a student of Ed Weiss' before I was drowned out by a gale force bellowing wind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCGTbqT-im8

I use this drill a lot for a couple of obvious reasons. It fits right into my "wheel house" as 10splayer likes to say. First of all it gets the student to move forwards. On both the volley and the groundstroke. I insist that the student gets that front foot down on both the volley and the groundstroke as any good Welby Van Horn dicsiple would advocate…using that front foot as the anchor. At the same time it is a great teaching drill to teach the balance necessary to retreat and then apply the necessary footwork to transfer the weight forward into the stroke as you deliver it. Obviously this is a great volleying drill as well as it teaches you to move in and close on the net. Instead of standing squarely at the net and "slapping" at the ball. There is much more to this drill that can be built into it and I feel it is an indispensable teaching tool.

At the same symposium Bob Brett did this hand feeding drill which is another great teaching tool. Once again I will insist that my student gets that weight transferred to the front foot with the stroke. So in both of these drills you get a lot of work to introduce and emphasize to the student the importance of weight control…transferring the weight into the ball via the racquet beak via the position of the body and moving parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osnpBCjAyC0

The amazing thing about both of these drills is the dialogue opportunities that you have with the student to illustrate different fundamental components of the swing. Getting into position to make the swing is the ultimate emphasis and if you get into the proper position the body more or less might just find it's way "home" with some simple instructions. The repetitious value of the drills are as good as gold and it is impossible to not get the work and the blood, sweat and tears out of the student as well. Every single student that I have worked these drills has taken great dividends away from them.

One of the dialogue opportunities might just be the case for getting the feet into proper position otherwise it is going to be a very ugly drill and the next opportunity that would all the logical sense in the world is to maneuverer that racquet to come from below the ball in order to get the ball to arch from closer in…getting it over the net and building in some margin for error. Topspin.

The funny thing is that I had this long discussion with Bob Brett that was terribly interesting. I told him of my paradigm and I believe that I got his attention right away and he proceeded to share a lot of really cool conversation with me. The Harry Hopman mention certainly struck a chord with him. Just a couple of guys talking tennis. Same age.

I'm far from great but will gladly take the compliment.
My posting of my forehand was singlehandedly the best thing that ever happened to that shot. All contributors on here were incredibly helpful to my stroke and perhaps the most pivotal was don_budge. Please listen to this man.

Are his ideas and thoughts steeped in "traditional" and "old school" thought process like many may think? No. They are steeped in basic fundamentals.
If you can't do the little things well, you can't do the big things at all. tennis_chiro is a great coach so I know he will no doubt take these tips and helpful suggestions and put them to good use. And please, take don_budge's advice like I did. Implement it and your student will see some results. Cartier seems like a highly engaged and intelligent kid. I have confidence he can grasp and duplicate what you are trying to get him to do. It's just going to take him the realization that it starts with the feet first.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

Attention…Kyle!

Post #28.

[tennis_chiro]

I know we talked about this privately and I decided to go public with it. Sharing "food for thought".

Interesting videos tennis_chiro. While the historical progression is also interesting I don't see any basic change or approach into how your student hits the forehand. Some students have an unbelievable capacity to resist change and amount of patience it requires from the teacher is another phenomena altogether. The use of the ball machines is a wonder to behold…I can appreciate the amount of thought that went into that not to mention the maintenance required.

This fellow hits a very flattish stroke and there is nothing inherently wrong with that…but he definitely should develop the ability to hit topspin and a lot of it when he chooses. I think that the proper fundamental developmental base for the forehand is a flatter stroke where you can adapt and build onto. It is also helpful to hit flatter on the forehand to produce more penetrating shots and when playing closer to the net.

This young Cartier does a couple of things that are forever going to encourage him to hit flat and one of them is his racquet head's approach to the ball. Like the great Kyle LaCroix down there in southern Florida his racquet head doesn't drop below the ball and like Kyle a lot of it has to do with his stance and his footwork.

Your student plays with an exaggerated (in my book) western forehand grip and he make constant use of the open stance as his default position. Between these two dynamic issues it is going to encourage him to do exactly what he is doing until the cows come home unless he makes at least on fundamental change.

In a couple of his hitting sequences he hits with a very nice closed or semi-closed stance and makes what appears to me to be a very nice pass at the ball. Maybe not with all of the outrageous speed of the exaggerated open variety but a very nice controlled swing that has a lot of potential. His forehand will probably never get much better than it is now without some fundamental change.

That change I believe will begin with how he places his feet. I would start him out with this drill that was filmed at the "Kings of Tennis" symposium that I attended in Stockholm, Sweden last year. Bob Brett took this 15 year old boy onto the court and worked him over for nearly an hour and it was a pretty amazing display of coaching as his one hour lesson took this fellow through virtually every inch of the court and every variety of stroke with very little "technique instruction" from Bob.

Check this drill out…I was going to recommend it to a student of Ed Weiss' before I was drowned out by a gale force bellowing wind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCGTbqT-im8

I use this drill a lot for a couple of obvious reasons. It fits right into my "wheel house" as 10splayer likes to say. First of all it gets the student to move forwards. On both the volley and the groundstroke. I insist that the student gets that front foot down on both the volley and the groundstroke as any good Welby Van Horn dicsiple would advocate…using that front foot as the anchor. At the same time it is a great teaching drill to teach the balance necessary to retreat and then apply the necessary footwork to transfer the weight forward into the stroke as you deliver it. Obviously this is a great volleying drill as well as it teaches you to move in and close on the net. Instead of standing squarely at the net and "slapping" at the ball. There is much more to this drill that can be built into it and I feel it is an indispensable teaching tool.

At the same symposium Bob Brett did this hand feeding drill which is another great teaching tool. Once again I will insist that my student gets that weight transferred to the front foot with the stroke. So in both of these drills you get a lot of work to introduce and emphasize to the student the importance of weight control.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osnpBCjAyC0

The amazing thing about both of these drills is the dialogue opportunities that you have with the student to illustrate different fundamental components of the swing. Getting into position to make the swing is the ultimate emphasis and if you get into the proper position the body more or less might just find it's way "home" with some simple instructions. The repetitious value of the drills are as good as gold and it is impossible to not get the work and the blood, sweat and tears out of the student as well. Every single student that I have worked these drills has taken great dividends away from them.

The funny thing is that I had this long discussion with Bob Brett that was terribly interesting. I told him of my paradigm and I believe that I got his attention right away and he proceeded to share a lot of really cool conversation with me. The Harry Hopman mention certainly struck a chord with him. Just a couple of guys talking tennis. Same age.

"The book is Bill Tilden. The model is Richard Gonzalez with the Don Budge backhand. Harry Hopman is the coach and Roger Federer is the living proof."

Yes, I too like it when he steps in. I really encourage it, especially when he has to reach forward to a ball. But I don't insist upon it. Tough to swim against that tide. I, however, do insist that he get balance and bring his weight back into the shot rather than falling away as he hits the ball finishing with his weight forward or at least centered in that open stance. I think there are some additional benefits from stepping in to the ball: the big step automatically lowers the whole carriage which makes it a lot easier to get below the ball, the additional length of the forward stroke gives some additional stroke runway to drop the racket head more naturally below the contact point and it gives you a solid fulcrum about which you can apply your power. Even with the open stance stroke, you are better off if you can securely place that fulcrum somewhere near your front hip rather than falling backward and putting a less stable fulcrum at your rear hip.

don

[don_budge]

Bob Brett…don_budge and "up and back".

I know we talked about this privately and I decided to go public with it. Sharing "food for thought".

Interesting videos tennis_chiro. While the historical progression is also interesting I don't see any basic change or approach into how your student hits the forehand. Some students have an unbelievable capacity to resist change and the amount of patience it requires from the teacher is another phenomena altogether. The use of the ball machines is a wonder to behold…I can appreciate the amount of thought that went into that not to mention the maintenance required.

This fellow hits a very flattish stroke and there is nothing inherently wrong with that…but he definitely should develop the ability to hit topspin and a lot of it when he chooses. I think that the proper fundamental developmental base for the forehand is a flatter stroke where you can adapt and build onto. It is also helpful to hit flatter on the forehand to produce more penetrating shots and when playing closer to the net.

This young Cartier does a couple of things that are forever going to encourage him to hit flat and one of them is his racquet head's approach to the ball. Like the great Kyle LaCroix down there in southern Florida his racquet head doesn't drop below the ball and like Kyle a lot of it has to do with his stance and his footwork. A couple of other coaches have noticed some similarity to Kyle's forehand.

Your student plays with an exaggerated (in my book) western forehand grip and he makes constant use of the open stance as his default position. Between these two dynamic issues it is going to encourage him to do exactly what he is doing until the cows come home unless he makes at least one fundamental change. No matter how many times you tell him he will still not "feel" what it is you are trying to get him to do.

In a couple of his hitting sequences he hits with a very nice closed or semi-closed stance and makes what appears to me to be a very nice pass at the ball. Much more forward emphasis and less backward emphasis, to borrow from the worldsbesttenniscoach vernacular. Maybe not with all of the outrageous speed of the exaggerated open variety but a very nice controlled swing that has a lot of potential…going forwards. His forehand will probably never get much better than it is now without some fundamental change.

That change I believe will begin with how he places his feet. I would start him out with this drill that was filmed at the "Kings of Tennis" symposium that I attended in Stockholm, Sweden last year. Bob Brett took this 15 year old boy onto the court and worked him over for nearly an hour and it was a pretty amazing display of coaching as his one hour lesson took this fellow through virtually every inch of the court and every variety of stroke with very little "technique instruction" from Bob.

Check this drill out…I was going to recommend it to a student of Ed Weiss' before I was drowned out by a gale force bellowing wind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCGTbqT-im8

I use this drill a lot for a couple of obvious reasons. It fits right into my "wheel house" as 10splayer likes to say. First of all it gets the student to move forwards. On both the volley and the groundstroke. I insist that the student gets that front foot down on both the volley and the groundstroke as any good Welby Van Horn dicsiple would advocate…using that front foot as the anchor. At the same time it is a great teaching drill to teach the balance necessary to retreat and then apply the necessary footwork to transfer the weight forward into the stroke as you deliver it. Obviously this is a great volleying drill as well as it teaches you to move in and close on the net. Instead of standing squarely at the net and "slapping" at the ball. There is much more to this drill that can be built into it and I feel it is an indispensable teaching tool.

At the same symposium Bob Brett did this hand feeding drill which is another great teaching tool. Once again I will insist that my student gets that weight transferred to the front foot with the stroke. So in both of these drills you get a lot of work to introduce and emphasize to the student the importance of weight control…transferring the weight into the ball via the racquet head via the position of the body and moving parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osnpBCjAyC0

The amazing thing about both of these drills is the dialogue opportunities that you have with the student to illustrate different fundamental components of the swing. Getting into position to make the swing is the ultimate emphasis and if you get into the proper position the body more or less might just find it's way "home" with some simple instructions. The repetitious value of the drills are as good as gold and it is impossible to not get the work and the blood, sweat and tears out of the student as well. Every single student that I have worked these drills has taken great dividends away from them.

One of the dialogue opportunities might just be the case for getting the feet into proper position otherwise it is going to be a very ugly drill. The next dialogue opportunity that would all the logical sense in the world is to maneuverer that racquet head to come from below the ball in order to get the ball to arch when play gets closer in to the net…getting the ball over the net and building in some margin for error to boot. Topspin.

The funny thing is that I had this long discussion with Bob Brett that was terribly interesting. I told him of my paradigm and I believe that I got his attention right away and he proceeded to share a lot of really cool conversation with me. The Harry Hopman mention certainly struck a chord with him. Just a couple of guys talking tennis. Same age.

"The book is Bill Tilden. The model is Richard Gonzalez with the Don Budge backhand. Harry Hopman is the coach and Roger Federer is the living proof."

[tennis_chiro]

Earlier in the coaching process (right at the beginning of the clip...assume 2011) I see Cartier lowers the racket head without any problem. I wonder whether the problem reared itself during the process of coaching the ATP 3 (getting the racket head above and to the right of the hitting hand). Whereas he once lowered the racket quite easily he now no longer can it seems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQxQpiZbORY&feature=youtu.be

I am really interested if this is how the problem (raised racket head) may have started? So often as a coach I try to do something and end up with something else or fail to get what I intended.

Stotty,
you are correct. The first clip is from December 2011 about 50 weeks after I started with him. I'll have to try to get the video I took on the very first day. And he does do a better job of getting below the ball, but I am feeding him balls above his waist and he still only gets a couple of inches below contact point, although it does seem a little more than the present situation. And, indeed, I was trying to get something to change. I don't think we were as aware yet of the Type III forehand at that point, but I had been teaching that unit turn to a point with the racket head off the right shoulder for many years and I really wanted to break him of taking the full stop with racket extended back and low behind him. He's never completely gotten away from that and I feel that still works against him and getting the racket head lower. I don't think the stroke he had at that point would have worked as well as this one today, especially on higher heavy balls, but it does seem like he got somewhat more below the ball back then.

don

[hockeyscout]

Yes, Phil, del Potro does have one of the flatest biggest forehands. But look at this slomo from the archive here:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Juan_DelPotro_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/JD_FH_Center&stroke=FH%20Center%20NeutralStance%20Side1%20240fps.mp4

Juan Martin actually gets much more below the ball than my student or Kyle. Amazing that he finds time to get away with that high takeaway, but he does. And there is no sense of hesitation or pause at the back of his swing like on my student's. But yes, del Potro is a pretty good model for a tall player. I'm not sure the high backswing is a good or bad thing to emulate. But it certainly makes a case that there is enough time to drop the racket head below the ball!

don

God, is that ugly to watch. Geez. However, its working for him and his results are spectacular.

[stotty]

Earlier in the coaching process (right at the beginning of the clip...assume 2011) I see Cartier lowers the racket head without any problem. I wonder whether the problem reared itself during the process of coaching the ATP 3 (getting the racket head above and to the right of the hitting hand). Whereas he once lowered the racket quite easily he now no longer can it seems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQxQpiZbORY&feature=youtu.be

I am really interested if this is how the problem (raised racket head) may have started? So often as a coach I try to do something and end up with something else or fail to get what I intended.

[bobbyswift]

He is right in my opinion. He starts the pull at the top not after he has gravity dropped. Small difference but potentially huge change.

[tennis_chiro]

Go right to the middle of this clip on Roger:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/high_speed_archive/phantom/Roger_Federer_Court_Level_HD_HS/index.html?dir=Forehand/RF_FH_Center&stroke=FH%20Center%20OpenStance%20CourtLevelRear%20500fps.mp4

And while the angle may not be quite as great as Cartier's in my example, it is certainly much greater than the angle before the flip and more acute than 90 degrees.

don

[gzhpcu]

don,
Have you looked at Ubersense or Dartfish on an iPad? Much easier to use. I like Ubersense, and it is free. Use it on my iPhone...

[tennis_chiro]

For bobbyswift

Looking at last ones. Top of backswing tip of frame should be almost all above hand. As gravity drop begins racket tip becomes less but is still quite above hand. At the moment of the flip racket is above and outside. But compare racket angle at top of backswing and at the transition before the flip. The wrist isn't in flexion but their is a change from extension at the end of pat the dog. That is what I am talking about. To much wrist extension at the end of pat the dog.

I tried to do an analysis in Dartfish, but after 3 years of struggling with it, I still can't get the damn thing to display the way I want it to or do a voiceover the way it is supposed to, much less be able to tag a match. But I did put up this video to highlight what you are saying:

http://youtu.be/TYci9Pas3Io

If you look at this blowup of one stroke at 1/8 speed from the video clip of 12/11/2014, you can see the extreme wrist extension Cartier gets into after the flip. I agree that is a lot more than I would like to see, but I see that as part of the characteristic of that straight arm forehand. What is more clear to me from this view is that the racket head does not get enough below the ball. Because, inspite of that wrist extension position, he still manages to hit the holy bejezus out of the ball (please excuse the technical terminology!). On the other hand, maybe that means that he will injure his wrist before he ever learns to control the shot.

I haven't looked to see the angle on Rafa or Roger, but I don't think it is that much different. To me, that's the nature of the straight arm forehand. And, no, I don't like it, but that's the way it is hit.

Comments, please.

don

[bobbyswift]

Looking at last ones. Top of backswing tip of frame should be almost all above hand. As gravity drop begins racket tip becomes less but is still quite above hand. At the moment of the flip racket is above and outside. But compare racket angle at top of backswing and at the transition before the flip. The wrist isn't in flexion but their is a change from extension at the end of pat the dog. That is what I am talking about. To much wrist extension at the end of pat the dog.

[tennis_chiro]

for bobbyswift

I feel that the angle of his racket to his hand at the bottom of his gravity drop is slightly to severe. The tip of the head is too high relative to his hand position. I would fix the slight pause in the forward swing by going slightly higher with his backswing. But slightly.

Bobby,
Can you please elaborate a little on what you mean by too severe an angle at the bottom of the drop. I need some clarification there.

As for the idea to take a higher backswing, that seems interesting. Try to make it a little more like the del Potro. Go higher to get lower. Bottle has to like the wry humor in that approach. I kind of understand, but I hesitate to make it any longer distance to get below the ball. But we can certainly give it a try.

Thanks, but see if you can clarify that first point for me. Remember that the first video in the youtube clip is from 4 years ago and the most recent video is the last one shot just the other night.

don

[bobbyswift]

I feel that the angle of his racket to his hand at the bottom of his gravity drop is slightly to severe. The tip of the head is too high relative to his hand position. I would fix the slight pause in the forward swing by going slightly higher with his backswing. But slightly.