Interactive Forum January 2015: Grigor Dimitrov Perfect Forehand?

[klacr]

yes stroke, Although Not a matter of whose shot is better or worse. Dimitrov or Federer's. I think many of us on this forum would be happy with either one. But there are subtle differences in the way they strike it. Notice in the video frame by frame, you see Dimitrov's left eye glance up towards his target. Roger keeps those eyes and head still a bit longer locked on the impact point.

Dimitrov is hitting this shot from middle of the court, looking relaxed because it was a nice warm-up session. Not stressed or pressured. I have the feeling that Federer when pushed wide or deep still maintains a bit more body composure and balance through the entire stroke.

Dimitrov does seem to hit the ball a bit later at times than Federer as he seems to use the reverse forehand more often than his Royal Role Model King Federer.

But seriously, this is such great video and there is so much about this forehand that I do love. The left arm stretch and turn. The racquet tip pointing outside on the backswing, the classic finish with back foot on the toes. Dimitrov is a pleasure to watch. He did get thumped by Federer in Brisbane 6-2, 6-2. But at least his girlfriend (Sharapova) won the ladies title

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[hockeyscout]

yes stroke, Although Not a matter of whose shot is better or worse. Dimitrov or Federer's. I think many of us on this forum would be happy with either one. But there are subtle differences in the way they strike it. Notice in the video frame by frame, you see Dimitrov's left eye glance up towards his target. Roger keeps those eyes and head still a bit longer locked on the impact point.

Dimitrov is hitting this shot from middle of the court, looking relaxed because it was a nice warm-up session. Not stressed or pressured. I have the feeling that Federer when pushed wide or deep still maintains a bit more body composure and balance through the entire stroke.

Dimitrov does seem to hit the ball a bit later at times than Federer as he seems to use the reverse forehand more often than his Royal Role Model King Federer.

But seriously, this is such great video and there is so much about this forehand that I do love. The left arm stretch and turn. The racquet tip pointing outside on the backswing, the classic finish with back foot on the toes. Dimitrov is a pleasure to watch. He did get thumped by Federer in Brisbane 6-2, 6-2. But at least his girlfriend (Sharapova) won the ladies title

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Kyle is on the right track here, so I thought I would expand a bit.

First off, I have always been a big fan of Grigor, however, it stuns me how he still has not filled in the blanks with regards to his technical footwork as it relates to point construction, which is very poor.

Don't get me wrong, he's a athlete, strong, quick, ECT, however it is all so ugly and chaotic from a movement perspective, and he understands nothing about dissipating pressure when moving laterally whatsoever.

Agassi - Federer - Sampras - Connors - McEnroe, they never had great propensity for speed (not like Grigor, who can move). Grigor is faster than any of those players, and less effective with his court coverage.

They all had great field speed, pace and well thought out step's.

Grigor simply doesn't, and it looks like he has no plan, or analytics in his corner to understand how to go from A to B to C.

He's got flashy speed, much like Monfils and his strokes look great in practice, however, in games it breaks down time and time again.

He's not a self aware athlete with good rhythmic timing like Agassi - Federer - Sampras - Connors - McEnroe.

The guy has no rhythm as a tennis player, or good plan of how he is going to approach - hunt the ball (as I refer to it). He lacks Roger or Rafa's (Nadal has natural speed) intelligence.

Everyone can hit the ball, however, not many can arrive to the ball at the right time, pace and with the correct flowing momentum and rythm, and this is why he is not number one, which is where he should be with his raw tools.

I love GD, lots of upside to his game, however, tennis is more than looking brilliant in a warmup, and looking fast, quick and cool.

Now to specifics.

He's got great tools, natural foot speed and is a good mover, however, these are the issues:

- He is always playing up way to high, its all natural speed here, and not a lot of proper technique and that tends to lead to injuries over the long haul. Hip flexors need so much work.

- Their is virtually no continuity of momentum to his game. When he hits, he cancels out and has to reset. Please watch Connors, he hits, and he's to his next. Or, Agassi. The top 10 players like Grigor has perfect strokes and they hit a GREAT ball, the world class players like Connors and Agassi hit a shot, however, as part of that shot they have already flowed into the next thing they want to accomplish in the point. No such flow with Grigor, its always a cancellation after his shot, over and over again, just like its off the production line. 1-1-1-1, and as we know tennis is a combination game of 1-3-5-7 if you serve, and 2-4-6-8 if you are returning serve, and you need to make the point flow, and that can't happen with 1-1-1 combos, and no next to next. Its a basic law of the sports universe.

- His feet has virtually no activation once the ball is over his side of the net. He's to far behind the ball and out of position and his inability to make last minute adaptation is just plain bad (meaning, watch him closely, he gets his feet set way to fast, merges himself into the ground, gets caught flat footed and starts reaching for the ball with his chin, nose, collarbone ect, instead of being engaged and moving towards it with his hips).

Watch his next match closely. See how many times he's set for a ball, and it bounces off, or a bit short, and how everything goes into chaos. Now watch Nadal with the same ball, he turns it into a winner because he can float into it, and adjust, whereas Grigor is set in his stance like he is playing volleyball.

It's so wild to watch how he just stops moving his feet, and waits for balls to come to him. And, what really concerns me, is when he swings wildly at a ball or reaches (I have never seen a guy with such great feet, who is so chaotic, and is reaching all the flipping time), he looks at the racket and blames his hand when his hips were the culprit (rule of tennis, move the hips to the ball and not the racket, well, this is the way I teach it, and its kind of a universal law in every sport).

I wonder why he doesn't get it , or just watch Nadal who is SO GOOD in the above mentioned areas I've discussed.

Jimmy Connors would be a great mentor for this kid because he's everything Grigor isn't in terms of how to play the game and knowing how to use your tools, and Grigor is everything Jimmy wasn't in terms of speed and talent.

OH, and by the way Bottle, you are a very brilliant man, although I disagree a bit you when you say Connor is using an ATP 3 backhand.

That is the ATP 4, and anything anyone is doing today is still behind Connors.

Thirty five years later, it is still light years ahead of anything on the tour, mainly because he needed to transition straight from that backhand to the volley and get on his horse to the net to finish like a pure stallion stud. His footwork is flipping brilliant, and that makes it so much better than anything in the current paradigm because it was all so "next shot" focused, and works rather well with the 3-5-7, 2-4-6 flowing tennis I am trying to instill in my young one at an early age.

I will probably get some hell for this here on the board, however, Novak is not even close to the brilliance of that setup, and stroke of Connors. I call Connors backhand an ATP 4 as their are some critical footwork elements he's doing that make it better than ATP3.

Jimmy's mother and grandmother took a lot of hell from experts, however, they sure knew what they were doing. Not a lot of talent, but as good as it gets when it comes to perfect athletic setups, and understanding in how to play a point and think on the court. To bad they are not around anymore as I would have loved to have tried to pick brains of brilliant tennis minds like those gals. True artists, and the quality of their work is still apparent from their development in the 1960s, geez, 55 years ago, holy shit.

[hockeyscout]

Great article by the way ... I cut and pasted a piece.

All the great strokes in the world mean nothing if you don't have control, something GD has not yet added into his total package (yet).

I tell you, I sure like these Trey Waltke, he talks like a hockey coach talks about sport!

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/champions/trey_waltke/TW_Playing_McEnroe_images/TW_Playing_McEnroe.html

For all the talk about McEnroe’s creativity and touch, to me his real genius was his ability to play aggressive percentage tennis. When they’re in trouble, great players don’t just start flailing. They’ll attack, but they’ll do so in a very buttoned-up way. Playing within yourself means never going for more than you need to. McEnroe was a master at this.*

[stotty]

The O2 and John's 2008 article revisited

I think Kyle pretty much nailed it. Grigor's forehand, as great as it is, is not as perfect as Roger's. Even though their strokes look so similar, as you watch Grigor matches, you really notice he does not take the ball consistently early as Fed. To me, Grigor tends to fall back too far behind the baseline in rallies. You never see Rodger do that.

You have to be believe he could learn to take the ball consistently early. It's learnable.

But it's not just about making positions and doing x, y and z...innate ability has so much to do with it.

Go to 2:35 on this clip. Sorry about the presentation of the video, it's the best I could find. Re-watch again on the commentator's repeat in slow motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpe29NR27-Q

Now go to the 12th video down (next to the paragraph 4 set) and watch Federer do much the same but this time inside out.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strategy/john_yandell/wimbledon_2008_a_different_story/wimbledon_2008_a_different_story.html

Now you tell me how a player can hit two shots like that when moving laterally the other way...hitting with such velocity? Those two shots are utterly stunning and there is no other man ever been able to do that in anything like the same way. The balance and timing involved is out of this world.

It's the innate qualities in a player that makes them/tennis interesting...at lower levels too. A guy at my club who has never been more than a very good amateur has better hands at the net than virtually anyone on the tour today. You can see some remarkable qualities in amateurs too.

It's the feel that Federer has on his forehand (all shots actually) that truly sets him apart from others. That cannot be copied.

[hockeyscout]

You have to be believe he could learn to take the ball consistently early. It's learnable.

But it's not just about making positions and doing x, y and z...innate ability has so much to do with it.

Go to 2:35 on this clip. Sorry about the presentation of the video, it's the best I could find. Re-watch again on the commentator's repeat in slow motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpe29NR27-Q

Now go to the 12th video down (next to the paragraph 4 set) and watch Federer do much the same but this time inside out.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strategy/john_yandell/wimbledon_2008_a_different_story/wimbledon_2008_a_different_story.html

Now you tell me how a player can hit two shots like that when moving laterally the other way...hitting with such velocity? Those two shots are utterly stunning and there is no other man ever been able to do that in anything like the same way. The balance and timing involved is out of this world.

It's the innate qualities in a player that makes them/tennis interesting...at lower levels too. A guy at my club who has never been more than a very good amateur has better hands at the net than virtually anyone on the tour today. You can see some remarkable qualities in amateurs too.

It's the feel that Federer has on his forehand (all shots actually) that truly sets him apart from others. That cannot be copied.

Practice players versus game player. Two different things. Roger performs in games, and Gregor has yet to show his skill sets are transition able to a match. In hockey we call it hockey sense. An ATP top 100 thinks one step ahead of the rest, as superstar like Gregor two steps ahead and a legend like roger three steps ahead.

[don_budge]

Anticipation…the ability to predict

Grigor Dimitrov Perfect Forehand?

Is this the perfect model? Perfect turn? Perfect extension? Perfect, full windshield wiper? Easternish grip! Perfect semi-open stance? Had the chance to film Grigor practicing recently in LA. I love this clip. But what does everyone else think?

I think Kyle pretty much nailed it. Grigor's forehand, as great as it is, is not as perfect as Roger's. Even though their strokes look so similar, as you watch Grigor matches, you really notice he does not take the ball consistently early as Fed. To me, Grigor tends to fall back too far behind the baseline in rallies. You never see Rodger do that.

It's a beautiful clip and a fine model. At least what we see of it. There is the set up missing. The movement to the ball and turn. Question…how important is it to get into position? Answer…ultimately important.

Then there is the obvious question that stroke is asking. What is the difference between this clone version and the original? Originality. What makes Roger Federer more dominate on this stroke is a combination of things but perhaps most importantly is his ability to get himself into position more often in order to take a more balanced swing at the ball. I would suggest that much of this process has to do with his ability to instantly analyze and anticipate what his opponent will do with any given ball that he hits to them in any given situation. Roger is one step ahead of the competition in this regard…not to mention possessing superior technique. He is superior mentally too.

Roger may not be necessarily quicker than the younger Grigor Dimitrov (aka "Baby Fed") but he is exponentially smarter and intuitive.

[hockeyscout]

It's a beautiful clip and a fine model. At least what we see of it. There is the set up missing. The movement to the ball and turn. Question…how important is it to get into position? Answer…ultimately important.

Then there is the obvious question that stroke is asking. What is the difference between this clone version and the original? Originality. What makes Roger Federer more dominate on this stroke is a combination of things but perhaps most importantly is his ability to get himself into position more often in order to take a more balanced swing at the ball. I would suggest that much of this process has to do with his ability to instantly analyze and anticipate what his opponent will do with any given ball that he hits to them in any given situation. Roger is one step ahead of the competition in this regard…not to mention possessing superior technique. He is superior mentally too.

Roger may not be necessarily quicker than the younger Grigor Dimitrov (aka "Baby Fed") but he is exponentially smarter and intuitive.

Federer is much quicker. Better field speed. Gretzky has field speed, so did Gordie Howe, and so did Ozzy Smith. Right time, right place, that is field speed, and if you don't have it you mis-hit in any sport. Foot speed is a game of who has the most control under pressure, glide, relax and sequentually fire muscle groups in proper order as required for a certain type of shot.