Waiter's Technique

[stotty]

Here is a clip where a coach runs through how to correct the common problem of waiter's technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc4dpfCWGuo

What do you think of his ideas? The against the fence drill and his others?

Let me know your thoughts...and do have your own way of defeating this tricky little problem?

[bottle]

Edgy. This edge and that edge and this edge and that edge. I love it.

I also like the part about serving with three fingers. That really does get the racket tip low, even for a rotorded server.

But how should one incorporate this in actual serves, not in exercises? When I started writing about letting the handle slip down into the cleft and then closing the fingers as part of zippy wrist action, tennischiro warned of losing big efficacy of pronation, I mean internal rotation from the shoulder.

I'd love to relax the fingers but then get them reunited with the handle in time for huge tomahawk and veer off to right before edging back the other way. Wonder if I've ever sufficiently mastered this? Probably not. In which case there has been a retreat from as much relaxation as I would like. Gee I hope this has been instructive to some other human being.

[hockeyscout]

Here is a clip where a coach runs through how to correct the common problem of waiter's technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc4dpfCWGuo

What do you think of his ideas? The against the fence drill and his others?

Let me know your thoughts...and do have your own way of defeating this tricky little problem?

That is the best serving video I have ever seen. Its revolutionary and I hope it does not get out to the general public as everyone will be good! Thank god for YouTube, now I can grab a six pack, a few tins of skoal and go fishing instead of studying, as this guy just handed me all of the answers I needed. Where would I be without these YouTube warriors.

Just one question, why don't these guys ever use their students to show us the great results they've achieved. Yes, that is right, their students do not have talent, and they are teaching tennis as a life long sport which builds character and self esteem. I am always skeptical of everything a tennis coach shows, or teaches, until I see him playing and doing it, or showing me an actual student who is in the ball park. Lots of big talkers in this business who cannot back it up.

I find Chris Levitt's stuff interesting because his students are fair players, and are kind of in the ballpark of being ballers. He has the balls to put his students out their, and stand behind what he is doing unlike some who talk, and never produce, or try to scam everyone into believing something is world class when in fact its just athletically unacceptable.

I hate these teachers who show Federer. Why not show your student? Well, for the most part they are not good coaches, they do not know what they are doing and the results show in their athletes.

[bottle]

Edgy. This edge and that edge and this edge and that edge. I love it.

I also like the part about serving with three fingers. That really does get the racket tip low, even for a rotorded server.

But how should one incorporate this in actual serves, not in exercises? When I started writing about letting the handle slip down into the cleft and then closing the fingers as part of zippy wrist action, tennischiro warned of losing big efficacy of pronation, I mean internal rotation from the shoulder.

I'd love to relax the fingers but then get them reunited with the handle in time for huge tomahawk and veer off to right before edging back the other way. Wonder if I've ever sufficiently mastered this? Probably not. In which case there has been a retreat from as much relaxation as I would like. Gee I hope this has been instructive to some other human being.

No one addressed my specific concern.

So I guess I'll try (again) some zippy finger and wrist action along with arm straightening at elbow as racket edges at ball threatening to cleave it in half.

That doesn't mean the upper arm, twisting like an axle, won't be involved in this tomahawk. Au contraire.

Tomahawk (action noun) in fact is internal rotation of upper arm. Veer to outside from almost right at ball is continued internal rotation of upper arm.

Well, first or before the transition from tomahawk to veer (with exactly how we come off the ball ever of supreme importance) the fingers and hand will become solid once again.

Will try this before returning to whatever I do.

Note: Any student is of first importance. I try to qualify.

Second note: A cue comes to mind. If tomahawk and veer are all one, just tomahawk with things straightening and veer with things already straightened, one can perhaps think about where elbow points. Now it points HERE (sideways). Then it points THERE (upward).

[stroke]

I think Tomaz has some good coaching ideas. I have watched a lot of his video lessons, and I have yet to see one that I think is off track.

[hockeyscout]

I think Tomaz has some good coaching ideas. I have watched a lot of his video lessons, and I have yet to see one that I think is off track.

See I look at these videos in a different way.

I ask two questions all the time: (1) Bottom line, what has it produced and (2) What is "next" about it, (3) Does it make sense from a 2014 paradigm, and how will it hold up in the new age of tennis in 2021.

I don't care much for these types of videos that steal copyrighted ATP footage and images, that are not supported by actual students these individual teach.

Again, this is where I like Chris Levitt. He has the balls to post kids who are far from finished products. However, you can see that guy is on the right path because he is willing to just put his kids right out there! That's balls. I see a lot of things I don't like about his student, and Chris likely knows and see's this as well, however, he is willing to put his money where his mouth is!

I like this site -- you have a video of a 10 year old Sampras and a 13 year old Sharapova doing drills, and being used as real life examples. That has a real world credibility with a guy like me.

Their are a lot of guys here who claim to be tennis coaches, preach this ideas that sound good on paper and yet they can never back it up by showing me a student that has used their information and benefited from it.

That's all I am saying Stroke.

[10splayer]

See I look at these videos in a different way.

I ask two questions all the time: (1) Bottom line, what has it produced and (2) What is "next" about it, (3) Does it make sense from a 2014 paradigm, and how will it hold up in the new age of tennis in 2021.

I don't care much for these types of videos that steal copyrighted ATP footage and images, that are not supported by actual students these individual teach.

Again, this is where I like Chris Levitt. He has the balls to post kids who are far from finished products. However, you can see that guy is on the right path because he is willing to just put his kids right out there! That's balls. I see a lot of things I don't like about his student, and Chris likely knows and see's this as well, however, he is willing to put his money where his mouth is!

I like this site -- you have a video of a 10 year old Sampras and a 13 year old Sharapova doing drills, and being used as real life examples. That has a real world credibility with a guy like me.

Their are a lot of guys here who claim to be tennis coaches, preach this ideas that sound good on paper and yet they can never back it up by showing me a student that has used their information and benefited from it.

That's all I am saying Stroke.

Please tell us how you would fix this problem. Not that you'd know, but it is a common problem. Also, please (your criteria for posting here) provide the names and proof of world class tennis players you have developed.

[stotty]

Stubborn waiter's

I think Tomaz has some good coaching ideas. I have watched a lot of his video lessons, and I have yet to see one that I think is off track.

Yes, the remedies seem quite valid to me. I hadn't come across the fence one before. I have a talented young boy who has a stubborn case of waiter's, and I posted the Tomaz's clip to find if others had remedies to add to his. I went to iCoach and surfed around on Youtube to find out if other coaches had remedies I hadn't tried, but found nothing.

I usually find the grip change alone (forehand to continental) can often be the solution to get them on the right track. The kid in question "fights" the grip change, however, and does all he can to find the waiter's position again. He wants to get there for all he's worth.

I am just curious how other coaches tackle the problem....

[hockeyscout]

Please tell us how you would fix this problem. Not that you'd know, but it is a common problem. Also, please (your criteria for posting here) provide the names and proof of world class tennis players you have developed.

You'd think when I posted the video of my kid playing you'd stop harassing me?

Wait until you see her serve.

Lets get down to it.

Let me make it real clear ...

1.

I would never need to fix this specific common problem in my player because I did not create it with faulty coaching methods - muscle setups in the first place.

2.

The issues you face as a coach, are not even remotely the same issues I face. We're literally coaching two different sports. Trust me, the difference is very real.

Now look at your player you were promoting as a world class player on this site.

Bottom line, he's not even remotely close enough to qualify as a prospect for a NCAA D1 football program.

I outlined issues he has, that my athlete does not have (and mine is a child).

Hip pointer issues, belly button position, poor torso elongation, splaying - buckling and double torque which is causing a major cancellation of power, atrocious backhand (just awful) and I didn't even delve deeply into about 200 to 300 other basics.

How about I post a video of my young one air squatting, frog jumps, lunges, and you'll see, these basics have been set up well, in a kid that is four or five years ahead of her peers in the size department. Tell me, do you see clumsyness? Those movements are all indications of proper schooling. You're athlete in that video is not capable of properly executing those movements at an Olympic standard. I would have to teach him how to use his hip flexors, and go back to ABC's.

So, how about answering my five questions with regards to that player of your's you seem to believe is world class, but simply can run, move and hit the ball to save his life? How about you answer these five questions: 1) Tell me what you are seeing in his hip pointers bio-mechanically, 2) Are you concerned with the belly button position (pointing down), 3) What about his torso elongation, 4) Are you concerned about the splay and buckling, 5) Discuss the double torque, and cancellation of power that's occurring here? Any thoughts here to specific questions?

I like Wayne Bryant.

Here's a guy who had perfect answers for coaches like you 10splayer:

"You want to help the environment, plant a tree in your yard. Plant two trees and you will provide yourself enough oxygen to breathe for one whole year. You want to help tennis, have your child or your nephew or that girl next door play the great game. Not trying to be negative, but all those USTA PD coaches through the years? Their kids don’t play the game. Those administrators telling us about this wonderful U10 Initiative? Their kids don’t play. If they play at all, they are sure not champions. So, my humble opinion is that if you are a good junior coach, you will have multiple, great players in your program and if you are a great coach, some of those players will be your own children!

Wayne Bryant also raised an interesting point:

"Did these USTA staffers ever see Tracy or Andre at 6, or Jenny Cap, Chrissie, Lindsay, Michael, Pete, Venus, Serena at 10? Andy, Mardy, Mike, Bob, Sam, Vania, Donnie, or Ryan?"

I got a challenge for you 10splayer if you are such a world class coach. Post me video of the seven, eight and nine year olds you teach who could hold their own against my young one. I'd put my young one I've developed against any player in the world. ANY. The proof is always in the pudding.


I'd be happy to post point play in the new year, serve, volleying and all the rest just to drive my point home even more.

What more do you need?

Answer me another question 10scoach - it's game over at 8, 9 and 10?

Either the athlete has been set up correctly or you they have not. Its blantantly obvious, if you do not have the technique at 8-9-10 you never will. Do you agree? At this age their are in my opinion a half dozen blue chip prospects in the world. Every agency and academy knows who they are right now, and they've all been recruited heavily. You seem to think talent just falls off the turnip truck. Its not the case. Players get good because they have a clue, and are surrounded by rock solid people.

Now, I am sure you will preach your brand of negativity to me, and call me classless and state the wheels will fall off the cart, because that is kind of the best you can come up with quite honestly. Its lame. And, laughable.

I got no real time for guys like you who have no certification to speak of in the world of sport who stay home watching YouTube videos, and mock people who are actually producing results that make people sit up and take notice. Its just a fact.

If you ask me, its feeble, and negative people like you who disparage parents are the main reason USA Tennis is in decay.

The best players you're country has ever produced have been immigrants with big time family - community bonds (Chang, Agassi, Sampras, Gonzalez ect), and parent taught athletes (Connors, Williams, Seles, Sharapova, Capriati). Tennis is, and will always be a family driven model. It all starts at home.

Coaches who claim they develop make me laugh a bit. When I went to Czech I worked out with a guy on who once played on a Davis Cup team. He did not want to play with my young one. He said, "I just handle top Junior's." I just played along with him and said, "Well, super, why don't you just hit a couple of balls with my young one, give her an autograph in her book, smile for a few pictures and it will be great." I knew perfectly well he'd stand by the net, give her a kids ball and if he was lucky he wouldn't give her a short ball or something and get a ball in the teeth. He put an academy fed ball in that was a joke, and my young one drilled it, and the guy volleyed into the corner of the court, and out, and turned to me, and said "What the hell is this? I have never seen that before, holy shit." It took one shot for him to figure it out. I kind of laughed because he was now hot to work with her, coach, do a lesson the next day and set up a training schedule. I kind of said we don't really need coaching, I am handling it and our methods we're different from his and we were really just hoping she's get to feel a world class pro's ball, and get her eyes on a top player. The guy was nice about it, he said, "Nice job. The technique on her backhand is a thing of beauty. And, she just loves to play. How did a hockey coach like you manage to set this all up? We gotta have some beers while you are here." Hockey is big in Czech, and most tennis guys have played it, so they understand how sophisticated a sport it is from a pure coaching and tactical perspective.

I knew we'd get nothing out of the guy because he'd never developed a player from the ground up, and made a living poaching off the guys who really knew what they were doing, and he knew it as well. Like come on, he doesn't have the hours to spend on the basics like me, or the technical sophistication to do it either.

Show me the great 6-7-8-9 year olds you are developing 10splayer. I am curious.

[10splayer]

You'd think when I posted the video of my kid playing you'd stop harassing me?

Wait until you see her serve.

Lets get down to it.

Let me make it real clear ...

1.

I would never need to fix this specific common problem in my player because I did not create it with faulty coaching methods - muscle setups in the first place.

2.

The issues you face as a coach, are not even remotely the same issues I face. We're literally coaching two different sports. Trust me, the difference is very real.

Now look at your player you were promoting as a world class player on this site.

Bottom line, he's not even remotely close enough to qualify as a prospect for a NCAA D1 football program.

I outlined issues he has, that my athlete does not have (and mine is a child).

Hip pointer issues, belly button position, poor torso elongation, splaying - buckling and double torque which is causing a major cancellation of power, atrocious backhand (just awful) and I didn't even delve deeply into about 200 to 300 other basics.

How about I post a video of my young one air squatting, frog jumps, lunges, and you'll see, these basics have been set up well, in a kid that is four or five years ahead of her peers in the size department. Tell me, do you see clumsyness? Those movements are all indications of proper schooling. You're athlete in that video is not capable of properly executing those movements at an Olympic standard. I would have to teach him how to use his hip flexors, and go back to ABC's.

So, how about answering my five questions with regards to that player of your's you seem to believe is world class, but simply can run, move and hit the ball to save his life? How about you answer these five questions: 1) Tell me what you are seeing in his hip pointers bio-mechanically, 2) Are you concerned with the belly button position (pointing down), 3) What about his torso elongation, 4) Are you concerned about the splay and buckling, 5) Discuss the double torque, and cancellation of power that's occurring here? Any thoughts here to specific questions?

I like Wayne Bryant.

Here's a guy who had perfect answers for coaches like you 10splayer:

"You want to help the environment, plant a tree in your yard. Plant two trees and you will provide yourself enough oxygen to breathe for one whole year. You want to help tennis, have your child or your nephew or that girl next door play the great game. Not trying to be negative, but all those USTA PD coaches through the years? Their kids don’t play the game. Those administrators telling us about this wonderful U10 Initiative? Their kids don’t play. If they play at all, they are sure not champions. So, my humble opinion is that if you are a good junior coach, you will have multiple, great players in your program and if you are a great coach, some of those players will be your own children!

Wayne Bryant also raised an interesting point:

"Did these USTA staffers ever see Tracy or Andre at 6, or Jenny Cap, Chrissie, Lindsay, Michael, Pete, Venus, Serena at 10? Andy, Mardy, Mike, Bob, Sam, Vania, Donnie, or Ryan?"

I got a challenge for you 10splayer if you are such a world class coach. Post me video of the seven, eight and nine year olds you teach who could hold their own against my young one. I'd put my young one I've developed against any player in the world. ANY. The proof is always in the pudding.


I'd be happy to post point play in the new year, serve, volleying and all the rest just to drive my point home even more.

What more do you need?

Answer me another question 10scoach - it's game over at 8, 9 and 10?

Either the athlete has been set up correctly or you they have not. Its blantantly obvious, if you do not have the technique at 8-9-10 you never will. Do you agree? At this age their are in my opinion a half dozen blue chip prospects in the world. Every agency and academy knows who they are right now, and they've all been recruited heavily. You seem to think talent just falls off the turnip truck. Its not the case. Players get good because they have a clue, and are surrounded by rock solid people.

Now, I am sure you will preach your brand of negativity to me, and call me classless and state the wheels will fall off the cart, because that is kind of the best you can come up with quite honestly. Its lame. And, laughable.

I got no real time for guys like you who have no certification to speak of in the world of sport who stay home watching YouTube videos, and mock people who are actually producing results that make people sit up and take notice. Its just a fact.

If you ask me, its feeble, and negative people like you who disparage parents are the main reason USA Tennis is in decay.

The best players you're country has ever produced have been immigrants with big time family - community bonds (Chang, Agassi, Sampras, Gonzalez ect), and parent taught athletes (Connors, Williams, Seles, Sharapova, Capriati). Tennis is, and will always be a family driven model. It all starts at home.

Coaches who claim they develop make me laugh a bit. When I went to Czech I worked out with a guy on who once played on a Davis Cup team. He did not want to play with my young one. He said, "I just handle top Junior's." I just played along with him and said, "Well, super, why don't you just hit a couple of balls with my young one, give her an autograph in her book, smile for a few pictures and it will be great." I knew perfectly well he'd stand by the net, give her a kids ball and if he was lucky he wouldn't give her a short ball or something and get a ball in the teeth. He put an academy fed ball in that was a joke, and my young one drilled it, and the guy volleyed into the corner of the court, and out, and turned to me, and said "What the hell is this? I have never seen that before, holy shit." It took one shot for him to figure it out. I kind of laughed because he was now hot to work with her, coach, do a lesson the next day and set up a training schedule. I kind of said we don't really need coaching, I am handling it and our methods we're different from his and we were really just hoping she's get to feel a world class pro's ball, and get her eyes on a top player. The guy was nice about it, he said, "Nice job. The technique on her backhand is a thing of beauty. And, she just loves to play. How did a hockey coach like you manage to set this all up? We gotta have some beers while you are here." Hockey is big in Czech, and most tennis guys have played it, so they understand how sophisticated a sport it is from a pure coaching and tactical perspective.

I knew we'd get nothing out of the guy because he'd never developed a player from the ground up, and made a living poaching off the guys who really knew what they were doing, and he knew it as well. Like come on, he doesn't have the hours to spend on the basics like me, or the technical sophistication to do it either.

Show me the great 6-7-8-9 year olds you are developing 10splayer. I am curious.

So I can assume then, that you haven't actually ever trained a world class tennis player?

[hockeyscout]

So I can assume then, that you haven't actually ever trained a world class tennis player?

You seem to be very hesitant in posting a video of one (any) of your kids in the 6 to 10 category who can play.

Why do you always dance around every subject?

This is my opinion of what a world class player is, and yes, I have one who is three years ahead of her peer group.

6 year olds - #1 in age group, and best in 7's

7 year olds - # 1 in age group and best in 8's as well

8 year old - #1 in age group and best in 9's and 10's as well

9 year old - # 1 in age group and best in 10's and 11's as well

10 year old - # 1 in age group and best in 11's and 12's

11 to 12 year old - # 1 in age group and best in 13's, 14's and starting to compete against Junior's

13 to 14 year old - able to win in Junior's (all of the best ones did)

15 - good enough to beat a top 10 girls on any day of the week

My idea of a world class player is one who is 2-3-4-5 years better than players in an exhausting age group.

That is the gold standard.

You can call your D1 players and top 1500 ranked players world class but who is kidding who here?

[hockeyscout]

And, no I don't train, I mentor. I hate the words coach and trainer. It sounds so authoritative. Athletes should be driving the bus, not us adults.

[stroke]

See I look at these videos in a different way.

I ask two questions all the time: (1) Bottom line, what has it produced and (2) What is "next" about it, (3) Does it make sense from a 2014 paradigm, and how will it hold up in the new age of tennis in 2021.

I don't care much for these types of videos that steal copyrighted ATP footage and images, that are not supported by actual students these individual teach.

Again, this is where I like Chris Levitt. He has the balls to post kids who are far from finished products. However, you can see that guy is on the right path because he is willing to just put his kids right out there! That's balls. I see a lot of things I don't like about his student, and Chris likely knows and see's this as well, however, he is willing to put his money where his mouth is!

I like this site -- you have a video of a 10 year old Sampras and a 13 year old Sharapova doing drills, and being used as real life examples. That has a real world credibility with a guy like me.

Their are a lot of guys here who claim to be tennis coaches, preach this ideas that sound good on paper and yet they can never back it up by showing me a student that has used their information and benefited from it.

That's all I am saying Stroke.

I agree we look at these videos in different ways.

[hockeyscout]

I agree we look at these videos in different ways.

I tend to believe these videos when I see real world examples of actual people using this methodology as opposed to stolen clips bordering on copyright infringement. What was the one site that was shut down because of it? They were about the worst for it, and it was all so unoriginal. They were lucky the ATP went easy on them!

[don_budge]

It All Adds Up…Saul Bellow

I think Tomaz has some good coaching ideas. I have watched a lot of his video lessons, and I have yet to see one that I think is off track.

I usually find the grip change alone (forehand to continental) can often be the solution to get them on the right track. The kid in question "fights" the grip change, however, and does all he can to find the waiter's position again. He wants to get there for all he's worth.

Well worth the time to view it. I viewed it twice. It was interesting to watch him manipulate the racquet head through the exercises. By watching the motions you can understand as much as by his words. The racquet head is swinging.

The change from the forehand grip to continental is of course the key. It's interesting that balls hit over the tennis players head on the right hand side of the body use virtually the same grip as balls hit on the left hand side (backhand) of the body at ground stroke level.

The change of grips facilitates all of the motions that he is demonstrating…from tennis_chiro's "figure eights" with the finish on either side of the body…to his tip of allowing the racquet head to fall between the two fingers behind him. I am a huge advocate of allowing the racquet head to fall from the top of the backswing to behind the body and this is where his tip of the fence falls between.

The "edgy" analysis was a bit fuzzy and I am not certain how this would register with a student…but he seems to believe it will. So does bottle. Worth a try. The three finger swing is an excellent exercise as it allows the racquet head to swing…rather than "hit".

No reinventing of the wheel here…just some tips about how to adhere to some hard core serving fundamentals. I remember doing several of these motions and exercises when I was young and really working on my serve technique…my service motion. A good motion is effortless and smooth. Like I said the way that he handles his racquet tells me that he knows what he is talking about. I think he covered a lot of ground…waiter or not.