Waiter's Technique

[10splayer]

Oh good, we're done talking about certificates, what the little one does, towels, and other sports. I almost forgot what the thread was about.

The grip is obviously key. But one of the underlying issues with this problem, is the impulse to "line up the strings" at trophy position. It makes sense (to the inexperienced) to get the hitting side of the racquet congruent to the ball. It's counterintuitive to turn the face away, and keep it away until the 11th hr. This is a great drill for promoting the kinesthetic feel for these positions. It works.


Did something similar with my golf swing this summer as i was playing with the face too shut at the top. Pro gave me some drills to do work on. (rotating the toe up a little sooner) that got the club up on a better plane and face position at the top. Felt strange at first though.

[stotty]

Kinesthetics versus verbal instruction with youngsters

Good to get back on thread.

I think the video is good on the whole. The drills work well for adults and children old enough to grasp the concepts. Where it is tricky is with younger children. The talented ones I like to get on track quickly with the grip and swing path,etc., but it can prove tricky getting these things across to an 8 or 9 year old. A coach here who is very skilled (specialises actually) in teaching youngsters told me that the best chance of getting them to carry out x, y and z is by finding a way to get them to "feel" it...feel what it is like, rather than rely on instruction through demos and the spoken word.

The same coach taught me a brilliant way to coach young children, using kinesthetics, to keep their backswing on one side of the body on both forehand and backhand. Works a treat, and done purely by getting the child to "feel' the process for themselves.

[klacr]

Good to get back on thread.

I think the video is good on the whole. The drills work well for adults and children old enough to grasp the concepts. Where it is tricky is with younger children. The talented ones I like to get on track quickly with the grip and swing path,etc., but it can prove tricky getting these things across to an 8 or 9 year old. A coach here who is very skilled (specialises actually) in teaching youngsters told me that the best chance of getting them to carry out x, y and z is by finding a way to get them to "feel" it...feel what it is like, rather than rely on instruction through demos and the spoken word.

The same coach taught me a brilliant way to coach young children, using kinesthetics, to keep their backswing on one side of the body on both forehand and backhand. Works a treat, and done purely by getting the child to "feel' the process for themselves.

It's all about feel isn't it?

Kinesthetics works for players of all levels. You have to feel it to understand it. Understand it to learn it. Learn it to master it. It's great when a student can actually feel the stroke or technical element, a eureka moment. The light bulb goes off.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[gzhpcu]

Feeling and visualizing, I'd say. Watch good players, helps you to play better. When you hit well, try and remember the feeling.

[don_budge]

The "Waiter Position" and Subsequent Banter...

Here is a clip where a coach runs through how to correct the common problem of waiter's technique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc4dpfCWGuo

What do you think of his ideas? The against the fence drill and his others?

Let me know your thoughts...and do have your own way of defeating this tricky little problem?

Edgy. This edge and that edge and this edge and that edge. I love it.

I also like the part about serving with three fingers. That really does get the racket tip low, even for a rotorded server.

Well worth the time to view it. I viewed it twice. It was interesting to watch him manipulate the racquet head through the exercises. By watching the motions you can understand as much as by his words. The racquet head is swinging.

The change from the forehand grip to continental is of course the key. It's interesting that balls hit over the tennis players head on the right hand side of the body use virtually the same grip as balls hit on the left hand side (backhand) of the body at ground stroke level.

The change of grips facilitates all of the motions that he is demonstrating…from tennis_chiro's "figure eights" with the finish on either side of the body…to his tip of allowing the racquet head to fall between the two fingers behind him. I am a huge advocate of allowing the racquet head to fall from the top of the backswing to behind the body and this is where his tip of the fence falls between.

The "edgy" analysis was a bit fuzzy and I am not certain how this would register with a student…but he seems to believe it will. So does bottle. Worth a try. The three finger swing is an excellent exercise as it allows the racquet head to swing…rather than "hit".

No reinventing of the wheel here…just some tips about how to adhere to some hard core serving fundamentals. I remember doing several of these motions and exercises when I was young and really working on my serve technique…my service motion. A good motion is effortless and smooth. Like I said the way that he handles his racquet tells me that he knows what he is talking about. I think he covered a lot of ground…waiter or not.

I was studying this thread the other day. This is a common problem among young tennis students…young and old I should say.

This edge…edge…edge combination with the figure 8's and the three finger grip. All of the combination and permutations of teaching tips. It's a really good and sound way to approach the issue of the "Waiter Position". I thought it was worth a reposting. The "edgy" analysis sort of cleared itself up with some work in the field. Good find Stotty.

Some of the banter is amusing and just as revealing.

[pvchen]

What does the racquet do on the way down from trophy?

This was an interesting video for me, because I didn't even know that opening up the racquet face was a mistake! When I watch videos of Fed, I actually thought the racquet was supposed to open, but I think what I'm actually seeing is the forearm going back with external shoulder rotation. To me, this is a really hard part of the serve to understand or emulate, because my shoulder just doesn't do what the pros can.

Which makes me wonder: what is the racquet supposed to do on the way down from trophy pose? Does the head come down behind the ear, like the guy in the video, with the edge kind of parallel to the torso? Or should it point more toward the side fence, kind of perpendicular to the torso, which (to me) looks like what the pros do?

[don_budge]

Three Fingers and the Thumb...

Which makes me wonder: what is the racquet supposed to do on the way down from trophy pose? Does the head come down behind the ear, like the guy in the video, with the edge kind of parallel to the torso? Or should it point more toward the side fence, kind of perpendicular to the torso, which (to me) looks like what the pros do?

Check out the part in the video where he holds the racquet with three fingers and the thumb…the racquet falls in the "V" of the fingers and the thumb.

[don_budge]

Feel versus Robotic...

Which makes me wonder: what is the racquet supposed to do on the way down from trophy pose? Does the head come down behind the ear, like the guy in the video, with the edge kind of parallel to the torso? Or should it point more toward the side fence, kind of perpendicular to the torso, which (to me) looks like what the pros do?

pvchen…at your level I certainly wouldn't get caught up in details such as this. You should concentrate on feel and a natural swing. Having an idea about what technically happens is just fine but don't be overly concerned about what the professionals are doing. Don't forget…they had to "evolve" into their swings. They didn't just happen to fall into them via a youtube video.

Right now my advice to you is to focus on your set-up position and practice these full motion exercises including the one with the fingers and the thumb. Focus as well on your grip. If you focus on these fundamental aspects of your service motion and "master" them perhaps then you can afford to ponder the wondrous details…but not before. If you focus on these fundamental aspects of the serve I am quite certain that your racquet head will fall into position quite nicely…absent of any unnecessary tension in your forearm or body in general.

Personally I am not focused on terms like external or internal rotation…I believe that the swing is a living thing and should be addressed in as natural a manner as possible. I believe in playing tennis by feel and not like a robot. But that being said perhaps robotic is your nature in which case…carry on.

[tasbaron]

pvchen…at your level I certainly wouldn't get caught up in details such as this. You should concentrate on feel and a natural swing. Having an idea about what technically happens if just fine but don't be overly concerned about what the professionals are doing. Don't forget…they had to "evolve" into their swings. They didn't just happen to fall into them via a youtube video.

Right now my advice to you is to focus on your set-up position and practice these full motion exercises including the one with the fingers and the thumb. Focus as well on your grip. If you focus on these these fundamental aspects of your service motion and "master" them perhaps then you can afford to ponder the wondrous details…but not before. If you focus on these fundamental aspects of the serve I am quite certain that your racquet head will fall into position quite nicely…absent of any unnecessary tension in your forearm or body in general.

Personally I am not focused on terms like external or internal rotation…I believe that the swing is a living thing and should be addressed in as natural a manner as possible. I believe in playing tennis by feel and not like a robot. But that being said perhaps robotic is you nature in which case…carry on.

Great advice

[tennis_chiro]

My progression

Is that Florian from Online Tennis Instruction? i think so.

I put together the following listing of some of my videos to lead my student's to better "snap" on their serve. BTW, if you check, you'll see that Sampras has a pretty strong waiter's position:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/high_speed/High_Speed.html?PeteSampras1stServe.mov

Anyway, here's the listing I've been giving my students this summer to help them master this skill:

Listing of some of my Youtube videos to look at for the Serve Drills

1: The Basic Motion of the Figure 8 and Internal Shoulder Rotation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiGmAHOCtCk

2: The "Snap" and the Beginnings of the "Burp" Drill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrxmoQ4HhRA

3: The Beginning of the "Bubble" Drill, Hitting from the "Trophy" position

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzUB5wjEIzQ

4: The Stances for these drills and the "Hiccup"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NCiPeTzdw4

5: Don Brosseau Serve 1985

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y6Tu5HxU_o

and the whole point that goes with that serve:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv6cdI6-QtY

6: Video showing the short drop to the slot from the Trophy position, no audio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr_CRdVLnp4

7: A Full Review of the Serve; the "Burp" and the "Bubble" or "Big Burp" are described in detail from about 8 minutes into this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqYg_IShYCQ

Other

Working with young player in Summer 2012

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZUBq_7IHW4

Same player’s Serve Summer 2015; now going into his senior year in high school

https://youtu.be/k2rmxGo2g9

Another really nice serve, summer 2015,
Doing the Burp and then serving (can't use the audio!):

https://youtu.be/kgwkm2Lp-VM

Doing the Figure 8 and then serving

https://youtu.be/2eXzjoZqcdc

Just a clean shot at the service motion from the rear, 1st and 2nd serve, notice the height at which the 2nd serve hits the fence

https://youtu.be/rCrAJSK9s6U

don

[stotty]

Elegant serve...

I am working my way through tennis_chiro's clips. I do like his serve, though...nice and fluid and yet with really good racket head speed. Not as much knee bend as some I notice yet he still drives up well and leaves the ground...and lands on his right foot.

It's a nice serve...very elegant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y6Tu5HxU_o

[tennis_chiro]

I am working my way through tennis_chiro's clips. I do like his serve, though...nice and fluid and yet with really good racket head speed. Not as much knee bend as some I notice yet he still drives up well and leaves the ground...and lands on his right foot.

It's a nice serve...very elegant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y6Tu5HxU_o

Almost the same motion as yours, Stotty. Wish I could still do that! Can't believe that is 30 years ago.

But I'm more interested in what you think of the progression. I like the clip that started this thread, I think from Fleurian Meyer (not sure of spelling), but I think my progression with the "burp", etc is more specific to developing a fundamentally sound snap up to the contact point, something sadly lacking in most recreational players' service motions.

Also kind of curious to hear how Bottle takes it apart!

don

[stotty]

Progressions...

But I'm more interested in what you think of the progression. I like the clip that started this thread, I think from Fleurian Meyer (not sure of spelling), but I think my progression with the "burp", etc is more specific to developing a fundamentally sound snap up to the contact point, something sadly lacking in most recreational players' service motions.

Also kind of curious to hear how Bottle takes it apart!

don

I like your progressions on the serve and always have. I like your take on the serve and admire your understanding of the mechanics associated with good serving. I have certainly learnt a great deal from you and transferred it into my own work.

I had a kid just yesterday who I tried your internal rotation progression with. He took to it well. I think kids have to be of a certain level before accessing a progression such as this, but with those who are are it certainly helps them understand the concept and what it is all about.

I still use figure 8's...and the weighted figure 8.

The hiccup drill I am least comfortable with because I tend to not break things up into counting segments 1, 2, 3, 4. I avoid coaching like this on the serve. I am assuming you only utilise this for a brief period to aid understanding and encourage making the key positions? If a student has problems making the trophy position, I merely start them in the trophy position and have them get a feel for it that way.

[tennis_chiro]

...
The hiccup drill I am least comfortable with because I tend to not break things up into counting segments 1, 2, 3, 4. I avoid coaching like this on the serve. I am assuming you only utilise this for a brief period to aid understanding and encourage making the key positions? If a student has problems making the trophy position, I merely start them in the trophy position and have them get a feel for it that way.

Why I use the “Hiccup” drill.

I appreciate your lack of enthusiasm for breaking everything, especially a service motion, down into pieces ala 1,2, 3, 4. But when I teach the serve, I make the rhythm of the toss and the weight transfer a fundamental and essential critical element. As you point out, sometimes it is necessary to start a student in the trophy position because they can’t get there on their own when they are preoccupied with the coordination challenge of tossing the ball. You can put the racket up in the trophy and make sure it is in the right place and then start the service motion and maintain the synchronization of the forward weight shift and the ball toss from that point, but that means the movement of the racket up to the trophy position is not actually part of the service motion.

So the “hiccup” (so called because it almost seems like an ‘oops’ when you drop the tossing arm back down as you move the weight back to the rear so you can move it forward when you actually toss the ball) was my solution. Getting the racket up to the trophy position is actually part of the service motion and the movement of the weight forward as you move the racket up to the trophy is the same as it will be when you actually incorporate the backswing to the trophy and the weight transfer and toss in a fully developed motion. The student is able to concentrate on getting the racket to the correct trophy position without having to worry about executing the toss correctly. Then when they rock back and drop the tossing arm, they can concentrate on the toss while the racket sits essentially motionless in the correct trophy position. Note: it’s important that the racket stay in that trophy position until the ball leaves the tossing hand. A lot of students make a mistake when they place the racket in a stationary trophy position to start their serve: they allow the racket to begin its drop before the tossing arm releases the ball - big mistake. Remember there is no such position as a “backscratch” in reality.

Bottom line: I am trying to use the “hiccup” drill to correct a poor trophy position and I think it is essential that the player feels the integral relationship between the toss and the weight transfer and also the backswing (relationship is non-existent if the racket just starts up at the trophy position). I don’t insist on it from everyone, but my view of the best possible motion is one that derives the tempo of the backswing and the weight transfer and the toss from the free fall of the racket with gravity. Gravity never changes. If you tie the consistency of the toss to gravity by synchronizing it with the free fall drop of the racket in the backswing, you have created the most consistent toss possible. But that’s a whole other discussion.

Certainly, this is a little more confusing at the beginning and more difficult than just putting the racket up in the trophy position at the start, but in the long run, I am helping them learn to feel the integration of the backswing with the weight transfer even if they are not yet ready to integrate the toss just yet.

don

[bottle]

Also kind of curious to hear how Bottle takes it apart!

don

Boy, that last serve sequence is a doozy, particularly the second serve. The lad can be my model. But sorry, I don't want to take anything apart. The time has come for right brain transfer, holistic, imagist and complete!