Project J

[EdWeiss]

Most of my coaching (all volunteer) is for a charitable organization Norwalk Grassroots Tennis ( http://norwalkgrassrootstennis.org/ ) which is dedicated to changing the lives of children from lower income families through tennis, education and life skills. These are kids who would have no real chance to learn (or even exposure to) tennis if not for our organization. About a year ago, I started to coach (in a group situation) a boy I will call "J". Before that, he played for a year or so but not at all seriously. He is 14 and in 8th grade. I believe he is a very good athlete. He is a very good basketball player and football player (does flag football, I told him no tackle and getting injured). He is naturally strong (powerfully built). Hard to say how tall he will be. He has one brother who is about 6'2" but another brother who is shorter.

I thought it would be a fun project to use the Forum for ideas on his game (hopefully on an ongoing basis).

Let's start with the serve. I have posted four videos below (taken with the iphone 6 plus camera slow motion feature - amazing). The first is a serve using the Welby Van Horn balance method. The second and third are of his serve when I allowed him to jump. The fourth is of a jump serve but doing a "hop" drill to try to improve his balance when he did jump on his serve.

He uses a proper serving grip and I think he has an excellent archer's bow and racket drop. The snap/pronation on the serve is pretty good (but could stand for some improvement). When he jumps there is some loss of balance/collapsing from what I can see and he certainly does not go up and forward as much as he could and does not do the "kickback" of the back leg. He also does a little funky thing with his toss hand after he releases the toss.

I would love your thoughts.

One gating question is should he be doing much jumping on the serve at all given how little he has played (as I said, he has only really played one year). His accuracy is definitely better when he does the Welby balance type serve. But it is hard to get kids to stick with that when they feel there is more power when they jump.

He is willing to listen but does get frustrated at times if things do not go well. I am constantly telling him that tennis puts a premium on letting go emotionally and avoiding frustration.

Serve with Welby method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNQOfqqEWiY

Serve with jump, side view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNXbSS7gMNo

Serve with jump, back view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO9Huo0LE-w

Serve with hop drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DqPR5BubYI

[tennis_chiro]

Keep him with the Welby method until he can show you more internal rotation (racket face going to vertical immediately after contact) and full extension (up on the left toe, but not jumping, arm fully extended).

But in general, he has the makings of a really good serve there.

don

[stotty]

Most of my coaching (all volunteer) is for a charitable organization Norwalk Grassroots Tennis ( http://norwalkgrassrootstennis.org/ ) which is dedicated to changing the lives of children from lower income families through tennis, education and life skills. These are kids who would have no real chance to learn (or even exposure to) tennis if not for our organization. About a year ago, I started to coach (in a group situation) a boy I will call "J". Before that, he played for a year or so but not at all seriously. He is 14 and in 8th grade. I believe he is a very good athlete. He is a very good basketball player and football player (does flag football, I told him no tackle and getting injured). He is naturally strong (powerfully built). Hard to say how tall he will be. He has one brother who is about 6'2" but another brother who is shorter.

I thought it would be a fun project to use the Forum for ideas on his game (hopefully on an ongoing basis).

Let's start with the serve. I have posted four videos below (taken with the iphone 6 plus camera slow motion feature - amazing). The first is a serve using the Welby Van Horn balance method. The second and third are of his serve when I allowed him to jump. The fourth is of a jump serve but doing a "hop" drill to try to improve his balance when he did jump on his serve.

He uses a proper serving grip and I think he has an excellent archer's bow and racket drop. The snap/pronation on the serve is pretty good (but could stand for some improvement). When he jumps there is some loss of balance/collapsing from what I can see and he certainly does not go up and forward as much as he could and does not do the "kickback" of the back leg. He also does a little funky thing with his toss hand after he releases the toss.

I would love your thoughts.

One gating question is should he be doing much jumping on the serve at all given how little he has played (as I said, he has only really played one year). His accuracy is definitely better when he does the Welby balance type serve. But it is hard to get kids to stick with that when they feel there is more power when they jump.

He is willing to listen but does get frustrated at times if things do not go well. I am constantly telling him that tennis puts a premium on letting go emotionally and avoiding frustration.

Serve with Welby method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNQOfqqEWiY

Serve with jump, side view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNXbSS7gMNo

Serve with jump, back view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO9Huo0LE-w

Serve with hop drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DqPR5BubYI

Looks a lovely natural action. The potential looks amazing.

Is he not mistiming the leg drive somewhat? On the the side view it looks like he has landed his feet before striking the ball...

I have to say it's extremely commendable the work you are doing with less privileged kids. But then I should have known it coming from you. You are a shining example to us all in more ways than one, Ed. You are simply one of the best...

[gzhpcu]

I like the jump serve: great racket drop, great toss, good archer's bow. Could have a bit more pronation after impact, but hey, he is really good! And yes, he does land a bit too soon with the front leg...

[EdWeiss]

thanks

Thanks Don, Stotty and Phil for the very good input -gives me some very helpful items to work on with J. Stotty thanks so much for the most gracious words!

[hockeyscout]

He is willing to listen but does get frustrated at times if things do not go well. I am constantly telling him that tennis puts a premium on letting go emotionally and avoiding frustration.

You know, I do not really agree with all this emotional talk in tennis.

So, Ed Weiss, if the boy gets frustrated, let him, walk away, tell him to sort it out on his own, state you have confidence in him, explain your idea, tell him to innovate, come up with something better, and when you get back from the toilet and coffee it'd be great if he could explain the process to you, and show you what he learned on his own. Tell him, look I am just a regular guy, and I am not as good an athlete as you, I am old, and you are young and smart, and I know you can reinvent this better than any coach, mentor or player out their, so go for it!

If I get a kid who is frustrated it does not effect me. Number one, shows me he cares. Number two, I just have to remove his fear elements, inspire him, present him with a beautiful vision, get him to a next, and most importantly make the player feel HE INVENTED THE GAME, and figured it out on his own.

Most great athletes when they were young were very impatient, temperamental, emotional and all the rest, however, along the way they got inspired, became artists and worked it out for themselves.

Anger is a gift.

[bottle]

Interesting.

[hockeyscout]

Interesting.

Or, just look through Geoff's posts. That is a guy that gets the mental game, and the kind of mentality you need to instill to be a player. I always listen to the visionaries and artists.

[johnyandell]

hs,

I am with you on the anger thing.

[hockeyscout]

hs,

I am with you on the anger thing.

Yup, its a gift (anger).

I was always interested in how athletes like Agassi, Borg, Federer, Sampras and McEnroe were temperamental as child - athletes.

This was an interesting video of a young Azarenka:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0PuyIoukOc

Anyways, you can see why Victoria became a star despite the fact she had many shortcomings as a 13 year old technically.

She had emotion.

[don_budge]

"Project J"…toss in the court and go to the net

I believe he is a very good athlete. He is a very good basketball player…he is naturally strong (powerfully built).

Let's start with the serve. The first is a serve using the Welby Van Horn balance method. His accuracy is definitely better when he does the Welby balance type serve.

He is willing to listen but does get frustrated at times if things do not go well. I am constantly telling him that tennis puts a premium on letting go emotionally and avoiding frustration.

Serve with Welby method:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNQOfqqEWiY

I have edited your remarks to address only one thing here…well maybe two but the second I will leave unaddressed because I am really curious where the current discussion will take it.

With regard to "Project J" and his serve. First of all give the kid a name. It makes him sound like a petri dish specimen.

This is a wonderful motion waiting to happen. Two things. First of all instruct him to run to the net after he serves at which point give him one of those world class feeds of yours to volley. Teach him to serve and run to the net. That will solve those balance issues. Look at John McEnroe, Pete Sampras and Pancho Gonzales.

Secondly…the toss. Read what I wrote to Kyle about the Richard Krajicek tossing motion.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...tLevelSide.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/richardkrajicek/richardkrajicek_serve/rk_toss/rk_toss.html?RK1stSAdTossCourtLevelFront.mov

But Richard Krajicek certainly has his ducks in a row doesn't he? Another very, very interesting thing about the Krajicek serve is the tossing motion…compared to Kyle's. Take a look at the two video's courtesy of the stroke archive. I was just teaching a couple of kid's this tossing motion today ironically enough.

In that first video you can see that Richard goes forwards with his tossing hand into the court. The trajectory of his ball is a virtual straight up toss. The second view from the front confirms this…that hand is basically coming straight to the camera. This, I believe, is the correct way to toss the ball. Both arms and hands go away from the body on the back swing…the racquet arm goes backwards of course but the front arm goes forwards. It looks to me as if Richard makes contact with the ball somewhat over his rotating right shoulder. I love the Krajicek tossing motion…as I said I was working with a couple of players on this today and it helped them going forwards.

Many servers…and Kyle is one of them get this rather right to left trajectory going on.

Our "Project J" needs to make a similar toss as Richard Krajicek does and take a look as Richard is immediately scampering to the net. Basketball and tennis? Please send this young fellow in the direction of the net immediately without any dilly dallying about. Athletic? Go forwards and backwards. Have him do the drills…that I never completed writing to you about in that other thread. It may have been of some interest to you…we'll never know. They may have been of some serious interest to your student for that matter. I am surprised that you were not at least curious. Those drills were in fact of special interest to that specific student.

But this one…the toss that he throws up here leads him to make an off balance motion. As a disciple of Welby Van Horn you emphasize balance and the racquet must meet the ball as far into the court and as high as the server can reach…in order that he regains his balance in a position to react meaningfully to the return. Notice where "Project J" is making contact with the ball. His ball will fall directly on the service line.

Do you want to iron out the wrinkles in this motion so that it is wrinkle free and perfectly smooth? It looks to me that you have only to get him to toss the ball in the right spot at the right time and to get that rear leg to swing into the court behind him. He is more accurate with the Welby method? No surprise…get him to take that right foot in the direction of his target. It's an aiming process…with timing issues. Instead of aiming at a moving target…it is the archer that is moving and aiming at a still target. That hop drill is the exact opposite of what he needs at this point.

I hope that helps…there is certainly much more to say…but for some reason I just want to clam up…which isn't like me. It was tough for me to even say this. I cannot for the life of me think of why. Strange…isn't it?

[don_budge]

Retreat! Pussy-foot...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WNbLvXy7ps

Serve and back up? Pussy-foot? Why? Conventional wisdom I suppose. But it certainly can have an adverse effect on an otherwise perfectly nice motion. Why act in a cautious or noncommittal way when serving? Move into the court even if you are not going to the net. If you are a good aggressive server you are always going to anticipate a weak reply at which point you want to make like a mean little cat…and gobble.

[hockeyscout]

I want a player who is the boss. Authority should only be put in the players hand. If they can't run the show, forget it. If they don't want to take responsibility for their tennis, forget it. If a coach has to talk to a player about work ethic, discipline and install it, well, forget it. That is mom and dads job at home. My kid understands one principal. I call it the alternative bio fuel gas principal. If mom and dad invested 110% effort into earning a certain amount of money, their is no way they should spend it on a kid who is putting out 80% effort. That's just my attitude, and fortunately I do not have kids who are screw-ups and lack discipline. I'm clear. And, my kids see my effort at home, and, fortunately they are even better. Its a straightforward concept. The second I see a kid go through the motions my support end (financial, time or whatever), and it'll be the second they have to find something else new and exciting to do because life is to short, and if your not passionate about something. If it's not instilling happiness in your life then forget it. I see so many coaches yell, motivate and plead, and for me, its stupid, and a waste of your internal energy as a coach.

[EdWeiss]

For Don_Budge (Steve)

Steve: Thanks much for the post. Will work on the toss with the student. I agree that serving and moving forwards should be a big part of his game. We do work a lot on his volleys. And you should see him jump up for overheads! (FYI - I just used the first initial of his name for privacy concerns. I would need to ask his parents if okay to use his real name.)

Regarding the prior up and back drill you have written about - I did take an interest and use the drill quite a bit with the student that was the subject of my post a few months ago. In fact, we did it last Monday (the last time we played) and he did it better than he had ever done it before. He mixed up the spin and depth of his shots very well as he forwards and then back.

Thanks again.

[EdWeiss]

For hockeyscout

Thanks very much for taking the time for your detailed posts. There is obviously much to digest in your posts including how they interface with what we are trying to do with the kids in the program (it is generally more about using tennis as a "hook" to bring them in the program and we then help them with educational tutoring, mentoring, etc., then trying to necessarily make tennis champions - having said that, the hook presumably becomes bigger if they really develop as players). I would like to send back a more detailed response(s) when I have a little more time. There is much food for thought in your posts including the control vs. power issue and whether you should use one approach if you are trying to build (and have a huge number of hours to develop) a champion and another approach if the goal is more modest and there is only a limited amount of time each week to work on their games. Thanks again.