Project J

[EdWeiss]

Don_Budge

Thanks for the post. I can do those videos. I next see him about 1 week from today and I can do those videos then. Thanks for the interest.

[EdWeiss]

Stotty

Will take that video - should have it posted in about a week. Thanks Stotty!

[10splayer]

That's a real improvement Ed...Good work.

[EdWeiss]

To 10splayer

Thanks for the good words.

[EdWeiss]

Additional Videos

I was able to take some additional videos of the student's serve. I was not able to get every angle that Steve (Don_Budge) wanted but was able to get a few more. The student very recently turned 15. As I have noted before, he has been playing seriously for a little less than 2 years. I find his interest getting stronger over time.

Stotty wanted regular speed from behind the court and here they are - first serves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrVY7Lx7wMw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRGWDMwcaB4

Here some additional slow motion videos from behind and from the side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8YJGZIZu2g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVDzwaHOaPE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sER-wlsxbR4

Thanks for any advice!

[tennis_chiro]

I was able to take some additional videos of the student's serve. I was not able to get every angle that Steve (Don_Budge) wanted but was able to get a few more. The student very recently turned 15. As I have noted before, he has been playing seriously for a little less than 2 years. I find his interest getting stronger over time.

Stotty wanted regular speed from behind the court and here they are - first serves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrVY7Lx7wMw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRGWDMwcaB4

Here some additional slow motion videos from behind and from the side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8YJGZIZu2g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVDzwaHOaPE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sER-wlsxbR4

Thanks for any advice!

Looks to me like the internal rotation is improving. Have you been doing specific drills for that or is he just naturally adding more IR?

don

[EdWeiss]

thanks Don. To answer your question: a little bit of both. After your comment to my original posting of videos of the student that the rotation could be even better, I went over that concept with him and we have done some of your drills. I also think he has it in his conscious brain to work on it. His rotation is better on the first serve than the second serve (not uncommon). Thanks.

[stotty]

Ed I am so impressed with your work here...with a kid who has played for so little time.

Some quick observations:

I would have him extend the throwing arm up a little further...stand it right up so the left flank is making the most of itself.

Have him look at the target, not the side fence before delivery. It would help give him a better sense of direction.

I am not sure the left arm folds into the body as neatly as it might after serving. That left arm acts as a brake and keeps the server better balanced. It's hard to tell from the rear view but it doesn't look quite right.

I'll keep looking and see if I notice other things. Thanks for posting. I just love it when others post their students. I learn such a lot from others this way.

[EdWeiss]

Thanks Stotty.

Regarding your compliment - I think it is having a good student not my teaching skills. Indeed, with this kid my biggest fear is screwing him up!

Totally agree on the toss arm. On some of the serves he gets the arm (after the ball leaves his hand) all the way up to the 12 o'clock position but on many others he does not. It is something we have talked about.

Looking at the target - great point which I did not notice before.

Regarding the left arm folding into the body: this is a really interesting point probably worthy of its own thread. Like you, I had always been a proponent of the arm folding in for balance and also because I was taught that folding the arm in was a breaking motion which then caused the right side (for a right-handed server) to accelerate (kind of like when an ice skater pulls in his or her arms in a spin to go faster). Recently I was discussing this with someone who had got to the top 90 (singles) in the world in the 1980s and who got there mostly due to a huge serve. This guy is a real student of the game. He disagreed with the arm folding in theory. He said looked at the best baseball pitchers (in the U.S. pitching and serving are sometimes equated) and they never tuck in the non-pitching arm - rather the not pitching arm goes over to the left side (for a right-handed pitcher) of the body. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVg8oeP1200 As I said, an interesting point to discuss.

[stotty]

Regarding the left arm folding into the body: this is a really interesting point probably worthy of its own thread. Like you, I had always been a proponent of the arm folding in for balance and also because I was taught that folding the arm in was a breaking motion which then caused the right side (for a right-handed server) to accelerate (kind of like when an ice skater pulls in his or her arms in a spin to go faster). Recently I was discussing this with someone who had got to the top 90 (singles) in the world in the 1980s and who got there mostly due to a huge serve. This guy is a real student of the game. He disagreed with the arm folding in theory. He said looked at the best baseball pitchers (in the U.S. pitching and serving are sometimes equated) and they never tuck in the non-pitching arm - rather the not pitching arm goes over to the left side (for a right-handed pitcher) of the body. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVg8oeP1200 As I said, an interesting point to discuss.

I wonder why he would say that? Did he not fold the arm in as others do? I find folding the left arm something I rarely have to teach to players with ability. It seems to happen naturally amongst most. Just now and then will I have to coax it.

I am not entirely sure of the consequences of leaving it as it's one of those things coaches are routinely made aware of fixing over here. And it's tough to question the rest of the tour.

I'm off into the archive to look for variations...

[tennis_chiro]

Thanks Stotty.

Regarding your compliment - I think it is having a good student not my teaching skills. Indeed, with this kid my biggest fear is screwing him up!

Totally agree on the toss arm. On some of the serves he gets the arm (after the ball leaves his hand) all the way up to the 12 o'clock position but on many others he does not. It is something we have talked about.

Looking at the target - great point which I did not notice before.

Regarding the left arm folding into the body: this is a really interesting point probably worthy of its own thread. Like you, I had always been a proponent of the arm folding in for balance and also because I was taught that folding the arm in was a breaking motion which then caused the right side (for a right-handed server) to accelerate (kind of like when an ice skater pulls in his or her arms in a spin to go faster). Recently I was discussing this with someone who had got to the top 90 (singles) in the world in the 1980s and who got there mostly due to a huge serve. This guy is a real student of the game. He disagreed with the arm folding in theory. He said looked at the best baseball pitchers (in the U.S. pitching and serving are sometimes equated) and they never tuck in the non-pitching arm - rather the not pitching arm goes over to the left side (for a right-handed pitcher) of the body. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVg8oeP1200 As I said, an interesting point to discuss.

I don't get it. The video of Verlander clearly shows his left arm folding into his chest.

don

[don_budge]

…my biggest fear is screwing him up. Man vs. Nature

The student very recently turned 15. As I have noted before, he has been playing seriously for a little less than 2 years. I find his interest getting stronger over time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrVY7Lx7wMw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRGWDMwcaB4

Here some additional slow motion videos from behind and from the side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8YJGZIZu2g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVDzwaHOaPE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sER-wlsxbR4

Indeed, with this kid my biggest fear is screwing him up!

Looking at the target...

Serves with Stan Smith...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxcMr1Ya5w0

EdWeiss…my only concern with this young man would be in screwing him up. I doubt that anybody has had to teach him much about this service motion so far so if you have the kind of sense that I think you do judging from your background with Welby Van Horn and Harry Hopman…you will wisely just nudge him in the correct direction and watch this thing grow. It's that good. Your best contribution to the motion is to have him running forwards which led him to toss the ball further in front of him and this in turn has set the wheels in motion to the fine delivery you see in front of you.

His motion is so free and flowing and natural…apparently that is the most difficult thing for tennis coaches to see. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. The motion reminds me of a nemesis of Stan Smith's back in the early 1970's whose name is Ille Nastase. "Project J"…has a beautiful little trademark flourish in his backswing that makes it his own. Leave it alone. All of it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his tossing motion as he delivers the ball to the precise spot repetitively.

The way that he sends that racquet head speeding out of the loop behind his back and up and over the ball as if he is circumnavigating a huge beach ball is an act of God…an act of nature. No amount of human interference is going to improve it. Let it grow…let him evolve. Just give him the proper stimuli.

If there was one little tiny adjustment that I would make it would be in his set up. I would move that back foot more in line with the front so that the back foot is not so far behind him. This is simply an aiming device that I would want to impress upon him in his formative growth period as it is a fundamental device in my opinion…in my paradigm. But that's all. Then I go to work on his work habits…on his practice philosophy. There is no better method than the Stan Smith method here and it is one that I used when I was about 18 years old and teaching myself the game of tennis. I had a plastic bag of 25 balls or so and I would practice until I could get all 25 in a row in…at the targets.

Speed, spin and placement. These are the elements that make up a serve. Coincidentally they are the same elements that make a baseball pitched ball. Learning to "pitch" to the receiver like a major league baseball pitcher is what my emphasis would be now. You see…if you get him to practice with these elements in mind that Stan Smith is emphasizing he is going to be sending messages to every sector of his swing to make adjustments and this is how his motion is going to evolve most naturally.

Motions like Gonzales, McEnroe, Sampras and all of the rest of the great servers were probably more or less natural motions as evidenced by the great and perfect rhythms they produced. It is the rhythm and the aiming and the delivery. This kid already has two out of three…it is the aiming and the tactical side of serving that he should start to aspire to. Develop spin.

I notice that in every single one of the deliveries he is heading towards the net and this has greatly improved his motion. That forwards momentum is what the aforementioned great service motions were always founded in and I am a firm believer in this. Even if he isn't going to head to the net, if his serve evolves into greatness he will want to be moving forwards to aggressively mop up on some weaker returns. The roller coaster must go forwards…to the destination.

It is all about aiming now. He has the tools and a God given ability. Don't interfere with nature and just set up the targets and watch. Watch how he naturally adjusts his swing to get the ball to do what he wants it to do. It's an act of God…and a product of proper practice.

[don_budge]

A potential student of the Game…The book is Tilden

The student very recently turned 15. As I have noted before, he has been playing seriously for a little less than 2 years. I find his interest getting stronger over time.

Buy him a copy of Bill Tilden's "How to Play Better Tennis: a complete guide to technique and tactics" and "Match Play and Spin of the Ball". I think that you can but them rather cheaply online.

If you want his interest in the game to get stronger and stronger…appeal to his intellectual side and perhaps you can cultivate this sort of trait into his personality. His make up. Encourage him to become a student of the game…and therefore life. The first book may at first glance appear to be somewhat dated or antiquated, but in terms of technique is actually what you will recognize to be the source for the basic fundamentals. The chapters on the mental side of the game are priceless. Learning match play psychology such as "maintaining pressure on your opponent" and learning to play to the score are paramount in a tennis player's makeup. "Match Play and the Spin of the Ball" was Harry Hopman's Bible and that alone should compel you to obtain a copy.

Your student may not reach the pinnacle of the game. He may earn a college scholarship. One never knows. But is never too late. Absolutely never! Once he gets the bug the only thing that will get in his way…is his own self. Provided he is given the base opportunities that one needs. You want to light that fire inside of him. Tennis is a multi pronged activity…it is physical, emotional and intellectual. Get him engaged on all fronts.

Teach him to coach himself. Very cool thread with some interesting and diverse ideas.

[don_budge]

Spin...

Project J may want to concentrate on spinning the ball meaningfully. Slice, overspin and flat.

[don_budge]

The Stance…Rick Macci

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrVY7Lx7wMw

If there was one little tiny adjustment that I would make it would be in his set up. I would move that back foot more in line with the front so that the back foot is not so far behind him. This is simply an aiming device that I would want to impress upon him in his formative growth period as it is a fundamental device in my opinion…in my paradigm. But that's all.

"Left foot pointed to the net post…right foot parallel to the baseline…left heel to the right arch."

This video of Rick Macci's virtually confirms everything that I teach on the serve. At 13.30 he talks a bit about the stance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vc3_pUFSgI

“I need you to me a favor. I want you to put your left foot to the net post...right foot parallel to the baseline...your heel to the arch. So I changed her feet...just so I could get her weight on the back foot. By the way...the back foot...it drives the engine here. Alright...both legs are going to drive. So...if you think the weight should be on the front foot...that is incorrect. Ok...the leg drive is going to initiate with the back leg.”