klacr Strokes

[klacr]

From the "Interactive Forum December 2011: Roger Federer - Forehand Drop Shot"…

Salzy Federer… http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...federer&page=2



klacr's volleys… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QroRBamo_jE

That backhand volley is massive. One can really get the sense of a wall behind that shot. At times you have that Welby Van Hornesque "walk the racquet parallel to the net" aspect of it as well.

Hitting volleys from a standing position is always a little deceptive. In this case it gives Kyle just a little too much time on the forehand to do some things that I am certain he doesn't ordinarily do.

At 6' 5" inches tall those volleys get nothing but better in real time. Fantastic that you went to this length to put your game up for review. I like the licensedcoach's referral to a "workshop". Everyone benefits. Sort of like having a live cadaver to perform the practice autopsies that medical students do. It gives us a chance to play "Dr. House". Cause and effect…hopefully a cure. Analysis and diagnosis…prescription.



A thoughtful comment as well…by 10splayer. I like the image of Kyle coming in and blanketing the net…literally making a big wall of himself that neatly and decisively deflects the ball into the open court for winners or tantalizing teasers.

I believe that another rule of thumb is to not hit the ball any harder than you have to to win a given point. Control is power…especially when volleying. Sometimes I like to see my opponent chase one down only to see it dribbling back in the open court…again just out of reach.

Glad you like the backhand volleys. Again, a more natural shot and side for me.

Pancho Gonzales said much the same thing. His volleys were a superb example of the theory...

Volleys are a controlled shot. Not a power shot. I love beating my opponents with precision, not justt pure power, although that's in the stable if I need it.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

I believe that another rule of thumb is to not hit the ball any harder than you have to to win a given point. Control is power…

Pancho Gonzales said much the same thing. His volleys were a superb example of the theory...

[don_budge]

The Massive Backhand Volley of Kyle LaCroix...

From the "Interactive Forum December 2011: Roger Federer - Forehand Drop Shot"…

Salzy Federer… http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...federer&page=2

I wrote this some months ago in a thread entitled "Salzy Federer"...the thread had turned to a discussion about volleying. This description is further justification to comparing Federer's drop shot to a "volley like stroke" or even a "half-volley like stroke".

Volley...technique

The volley is optimally three motions simultaneously performed together to create a synergetic effect. Remember when hitting the ball in the air...less is better. Score with a combination of placement and solid contact rather than outright speed.

1. The weight is subtly shifted on to the front foot, the mark of a great volleyer...chest and shoulders over the front knee from bending at the waist.

2. Subtle rotation of shoulders rotating into the shot...imagine blocking or meeting the ball with the inside shoulder on the forehand side, or driving the front shoulder down into the ball on the backhand side.

3. Subtle arm and hand motion slightly downward to impart just enough backspin through the racquet head for control.

Really good volleyers are able to produce effective shots with motions 2 and 3 and at the same time..."stabilizing the body" as Don says, which means placing the body and racquet head in a position to form a nice wall against the approaching ball even if the front foot cannot be placed down in its optimal position. Wrong footing volleys is not necessarily wrong.

klacr's volleys… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QroRBamo_jE

That backhand volley is massive. One can really get the sense of a wall behind that shot. At times you have that Welby Van Hornesque "walk the racquet parallel to the net" aspect of it as well.

Hitting volleys from a standing position is always a little deceptive. In this case it gives Kyle just a little too much time on the forehand to do some things that I am certain he doesn't ordinarily do.

At 6' 5" inches tall those volleys get nothing but better in real time. Fantastic that you went to this length to put your game up for review. I like the licensedcoach's referral to a "workshop". Everyone benefits. Sort of like having a live cadaver to perform the practice autopsies that medical students do. It gives us a chance to play "Dr. House". Cause and effect…hopefully a cure. Analysis and diagnosis…prescription.

Looking at the forehand volley a bit here. The thing that jumps out at me, is the changing angle of the elbow. The hitting structure can and will change, based on the incoming ball characteristics. But I believe, if you can keep the elbow angle pretty constant, you should. In other words, try and keep the hitting structure in tact as much as possible... He's really straightening the elbow midstream on balls that are constant and right to him...

A thoughtful comment as well…by 10splayer. I like the image of Kyle coming in and blanketing the net…literally making a big wall of himself that neatly and decisively deflects the ball into the open court for winners or tantalizing teasers.

I believe that another rule of thumb is to not hit the ball any harder than you have to to win a given point. Control is power…especially when volleying. Sometimes I like to see my opponent chase one down only to see it dribbling back in the open court…again just out of reach.

[klacr]

don_budge,

regarding the last 5 posts....Thank you. I do see it. Great detail. That recovery step is out of control compared to Federer's. Then again, most people's are compared to Federer. The stances and timing of the hips and shoulder turn as well. Yes, you are correct, power is not an issue. I've never been short on that.

Certainly gives me something to work on. Thanks for well detailed and thought out posts. Lots of reps ahead for sure. All great stuff. Always room to get better. Skills in abundance, just have to use it the right way.
Success is a journey, not a destination.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[don_budge]

Food…and the Kyle Lacroix forehand

Just think of all of this as food for thought. A couple of teachers and simultaneously students of the game just hashing things over. All of the rest of you guys too…great stuff!

A faraway friend or penpal in Sweden discussing tennis techniques. There isn't anything better to do for the moment. Food for thought. I know how much you love food. Everyone has to eat. Just hash it over. Think about things. Generally speaking. Good luck.

We aren't done yet.

[don_budge]

Shoulder turn...let your feet be the judge (Kyle LaCroix backhand)

Shoulder turn...let your feet be the judge (Kyle LaCroix backhand)

Backhand: I really enjoy hitting my backhand. I'm comfortable with it. I like to hit it from all areas and all angles. I have variety and it just feels natural.
Take a look...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEN_TEQs8zo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJv8MRLEmJs

Like throwing a steak into a lion's den. Go ahead and feast.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Yes...it is a bit like throwing a steak into the lion’s den. But better than throwing you in the lion’s den with pork chop trousers.

When you first asked me about the shoulder turn the first thing that I thought about was your backhand. Your source of comfort...always in your comfort zone hitting a backhand. This is where you would like to be with your forehand.

Taking a look at your backhand it looks as if you more or less set your shoulders on the same line as your feet which you consistently step in a closed to neutral position. It is a little more complicated on the forehand side as the one hand backhand is the most natural “swing” in tennis but I am sure with the repetitions you are going to put in you will find the same level of comfort...or nearly. What you are going to find is more effortless power and control.

This is the fun side of tennis. It isn’t necessarily “gay” fun...gay as in frivolously happy...but fun in the sense that it is an intellectual, psychological, physical and emotional exercise. Blood, sweat and tears. It is in fact...hard work. Problem solving and trouble shooting on the human essence level. No two human beings are alike but the fundamentals do not change. Yet there must be some customized and individualized parameters as you refer to them in your comment. Tolerances.

Whew! What a great question.

[don_budge]

Shoulder turn...Let your feet be the judge (Roger Federer open stance)

Shoulder turn...Let your feet be the judge (Roger Federer open stance)

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterOpenStanceFront.mov

At click #41 Roger Federer has completed his shoulder turn in an open stance position or setup. Notice some of the things he has in common with his neutral stance. His shoulders have rotate to nearly the same position as his neutral stance and the same can be said for his hips. Look at the feet too...his front foot position is once again turned to about 13 degrees or so. He is trying to keep as many things constant to his neutral forehand as possible.

As he moves into his swing once again he is able to turn his hips and following with his shoulders. See that at 7 clicks later...darn if that Nike swoosh is not in the very same position at contact as it was in his neutral position. Continuing 4 clicks later he has finished his shot while managing to keep his head in the very same position that it was in at contact...in both neutral and open stances...and here he is going to fall away from the ball somewhat as he is seeking to regain his balance.

Even though Roger was swinging from a totally different position he managed to keep his shoulder rotation throughout his swing to be virtually the same. Roger has a repeatable swing from any position. He has full control of his parameters and tolerances...like any good Quality Control Technician.

[don_budge]

Shoulder turn...Let your feet be the judge (Kyle LaCroix Open Stance)

Shoulder turn...Let your feet be the judge (Kyle LaCroix Open Stance)

In this video clip that you have posted you hit 12 forehands...everyone of them with your front foot stepping away from the ball. Except the 9th where you marginally step in line with your back foot. But in every single swing you turn your shoulders nicely with your left hand extended across your body. Even though your feet are out of position you manage to do most of the work with your shoulders. But even so...since the feet are not in position notice where you end up on every swing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4OkITdLTSo

One of the glaring differences between your forehand and Roger’s is that once Roger makes impact with the ball the position of his feet prevent him from over turning on the finish like you do.

“Is there a range of correctness or spectrum for world class forehands that I'm outside of? Anyone?”

I believe we have answered your question here with regards to the Federer forehand. Because of the position of your feet you have not quite turned sufficiently to the ball even though your shoulder turn is very good. But the bigger problem is that because of the position of your feet your shoulders really overturn even before you make contact with the ball. Afterwards they are clearly beyond the parameters...particularly for such a big man as yourself. That forehand recovery step is worrisome. Everything should be dialed down somewhat...power is not your issue.

[don_budge]

Shoulder turn...Let your feet be the judge (Roger Federer Neutral Stance)

Shoulder turn...Let your feet be the judge (Roger Federer Neutral Stance)

I like to hit from all stances. When I have time I always like stepping in and taking a ball with a neutral or closed stance. Sometimes I do get into an open stance. Either way, I get what you are saying. The issue I'm having is to turn more or less with body or turn more or less with feet? Just how much? I feel my upper body and arm have turned far enough noticing my left arm pulled across parallel with the baseline. What should truly judge the length and severity of my turn and coil. How much is too much? Is there a range of correctness or spectrum for world class forehands that I'm outside of? Anyone?

I feel like I can hit my forehand well against anyone, but "well" is not acceptable in my world and my standards. I can do better. We all can agree on that.


Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

This turned out to be a better question than I initially thought. At first I thought it was very good...and then I realized just how important it was.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_forehand/rf_fh_center/rf_fh_center.html?RFFHCenterNeutralStanceFront.mov

At click #43...study Roger’s shoulder turn in a neutral stance. Look at the feet...the rear foot big toe in line with the instep of his front foot. The front foot turned out to an angle of maybe 13 degrees towards the net. Coincidentally...the same angle that Ben Hogan recommends in his golf stance.

The shoulders appear to assume approximately the same line...it may appear to be a bigger turn but I think that is just his left arm and hand reaching across. The shoulders are close to being on the same line as his feet. There is your gold standard for shoulder turn towards the ball. But once again I emphasize...look at the ass position as he prepares to strike. He is semi-sitting or crouching. This crouching is a fundamental that is going to get that racquet under the ball…when you turn your hips in this position the shoulders are going to tilt…and Voila!

One other thing while we are on the subject of getting the racquet head under the ball…don't lift it so high in the backswing. You are at least 4 inches taller than Roger and see that he doesn't lift it nearly as high as you. Look how close he keeps his elbow to his body too. He's more compact than you and it should be the other way around.

The interesting thing about your question was that the more I thought about it I was wondering if you were referring to the shoulder turn before impact or after impact. This is where it got to be most illuminating with regards to your swing.

As we go 10 clicks forwards to #53 look at the position of his shoulders now. See that Nike swoosh logo. He hasn’t yet made contact with the ball. Now here is the magic...one, two, three clicks to #56. His shoulders do not appear to have moved much at all...but compare that to the motion of his racquet. He has finished pretty much square to the net.

What causes the magic though...it all happens so quickly. How does Roger keep from over rotating? Answer...look at the position of his back foot. It hardly moved. It moved much as Welby Van Horn suggests...a six inch lateral movement to his right. In this way he controls his shoulder rotation going forwards much as he did with his front position going back...with that 13 degree turn to the ball. Kyle...you are the poster boy for the “Forehand Recovery Step” out of control. Eliminate that to the point as Welby suggests.

[klacr]

Boy do I agree, really think that backhand volley is mint...

Thank you. I enjoy it as well.

Looking at the forehand volley a bit here. The thing that jumps out at me, is the changing angle of the elbow. The hitting structure can and will change, based on the incoming ball characteristics. But I believe, if you can keep the elbow angle pretty constant, you should. In other words, try and keep the hitting structure in tact as much as possible... He's really straightening the elbow midstream on balls that are constant and right to him...

will admit, These balls don't show my volley skills as much as I'd like. Ball feeds from machine a bit too high and got frustrated, sloppy and started taking big Paul Bunyan hacks at it on forehand side. Plan to shoot some video next week of more shots and adjustments to previous ones. Including better volleys to show off my skills.

I do agree about the shoulder and elbow stuff as that is something I teach and can do.

Yes, I was coming to that. I deleted my last post because I had started to disagree with myself about the rear shoulder. You nipped in a comment quicker than I could take my post down. Are you as quick as that round a court, 10splayer?

What the hell. My post can stand. It sets the ball rolling at least....

Do you think he straightens out the arm too soon after contact...so the U doesn't stay in tact long enough?

As to the question stated earlier, do I have faith in my mid-court volleys?...the answer is an absolute yes. In fact, if there was one shot I had to hit to save the life of a loved one or myself...it's a mid-court volley. All day, any day. I thrive in those conditions.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[10splayer]

Yes, I was coming to that. I deleted my last post because I had started to disagree with myself about the rear shoulder. You nipped in a comment quicker than I could take my post down.

Are you as quick as that round a court, 10splayer?

What the hell. My post can stand. It sets the ball rolling at least....

Do you think he straightens out the arm too soon after contact...so the U doesn't stay in tact long enough?

God no, I'm starting to get old Stotty..

[stotty]

Looking at the forehand volley a bit here. The thing that jumps out at me, is the changing angle of the elbow. The hitting structure can and will change, based on the incoming ball characteristics. But I believe, if you can keep the elbow angle pretty constant, you should. In other words, try and keep the hitting structure in tact as much as possible... He's really straightening the elbow midstream on balls that are constant and right to him...

Yes, I was coming to that. I deleted my last post because I had started to disagree with myself about the rear shoulder. You nipped in a comment quicker than I could take my post down. Are you as quick as that round a court, 10splayer?

What the hell. My post can stand. It sets the ball rolling at least....

Do you think he straightens out the arm too soon after contact...so the U doesn't stay in tact long enough?

[10splayer]

Looking at the forehand volley a bit here. The thing that jumps out at me, is the changing angle of the elbow. The hitting structure can and will change, based on the incoming ball characteristics. But I believe, if you can keep the elbow angle pretty constant, you should. In other words, try and keep the hitting structure in tact as much as possible... He's really straightening the elbow midstream on balls that are constant and right to him...

[10splayer]

My favourite shot of Kyle's is his backhand volley. I think it is a lovely stroke. I like the length of the backswing and follow through. I like the solidity of the stroke. It looks reliable and strong.

I am far less keen on the forehand volley. The acid test of a good volleyer is how well they play high forehand volleys from the midcourt. Anyone who works hard to come to the net will get plenty of those...should even search for them. How reliable is that forehand from the midcourt, Kyle? Be nice to know rather than assume.

If we use Henman from the archive as the model, then Kyle would sometimes need to point his outside foot more toward the fence as he commences the stroke...and use his rear shoulder more. Kyle's rear shoulder doesn't play a big enough part for me, leaving him having to follow through a little too far to get the power he wants. You really want to plough into the ball with that rear shoulder if you want to reliably pulverise those easy balls.

Thoughts anyone...

Boy do I agree, really think that backhand volley is mint...

[klacr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrZXReLNU1c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSVpIJ4zF80

See how berd coils sideways, angled towards the right net post? All top forehands do the same thing: angle the chest towards the net post, no matter what the stance: open, closed, neutral. Deeper knee bend, and large snap back? He has a larger coil backwards, inverting the frame towards the net, twisting against his own torso, and larger uncoil forwards. That's the shot you should be emulating. Compare it to your coil: no inversion, chest not coiled: straight on to the net, little snap back, no over the neck wrap a round on uncoil. "Shadow swing a couple of thousand times"

I see it Geoff.
I really like this forehand, although I'm also a bit bias as he is a favorite of mine so hard to not let that cloud my judgment. But yes, I hear you loud and clear. Thanks.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton