klacr Strokes

[klacr]

Something else I noticed Kyle: your toss is in front, look at John's article here:
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/..._the_toss.html

I have read this article multiple times. A real hidden gem. Thanks Phil. I don't disagree.

It's no fun to take criticism and advice from people who don't have as good a serve as you do. Sort of destroys the "buy in" feel. The whole reason K and Sampras toss so far out in front, and so high, is the double bow allows it. They arch/bow back, out over the base line with their left hips/curved back, and they arch/bow forwards, way out after leg driving out there!

Criticism from who? It's all good Geoff. Not fair to only want the compliments and not handle criticism. Makes me better. Makes us all better. My serve is better than majority of my fellow players, but I'm not looking for majority, I'm looking for the one and only. Pursuing excellence one day at a time. Besides, I take criticism every day in my multiple day jobs. Trust me, I can handle it and embrace it as much as I embrace the net

Look at Roscoe's serve here. His tossing arm stays low and in front... again, my guess: fast concerted motion. (like yours Kyle...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42STJgl2K4E

To sum it: you have a great serve, wouldn't change anything...

Thank you Phil. Glad you like my serve. I'm not looking at it as so much of a change, more of an "adjustment" or "evolution". It's all about getting better. I can't take a bow today for yesterday's performance. Not resting on my laurels or my serve. I do wish I could visit everyone on this forum and have a chance to hit with them so they get a chance to see it first hand and deal with it from across the net. Now that would be fun. Phil, you'll get that opportunity next Summer.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[gokulms]

It's no fun to take criticism and advice from people who don't have as good a serve as you do. Sort of destroys the "buy in" feel. The whole reason K and Sampras toss so far out in front, and so high, is the double bow allows it. They arch/bow back, out over the base line with their left hips/curved back, and they arch/bow forwards, way out after leg driving out there!

The best 30 sec serve lesson : note the remaining 30secs Sampras is working on his grip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BIs-YnjkXc

Exactly what Geoff is talking about

[gzhpcu]

Look at Roscoe's serve here. His tossing arm stays low and in front... again, my guess: fast concerted motion. (like yours Kyle...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42STJgl2K4E

To sum it: you have a great serve, wouldn't change anything...

[hockeyscout]

It's no fun to take criticism and advice from people who don't have as good a serve as you do.

Geoff, never a truer word has been spoken on this forum! Words of absolute wisdom.

[GeoffWilliams]

It's no fun to take criticism and advice from people who don't have as good a serve as you do. Sort of destroys the "buy in" feel. The whole reason K and Sampras toss so far out in front, and so high, is the double bow allows it. They arch/bow back, out over the base line with their left hips/curved back, and they arch/bow forwards, way out after leg driving out there!

[gzhpcu]

Something else I noticed Kyle: your toss is in front, look at John's article here:
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/..._the_toss.html

As for the motion of the tossing arm, no top player uses a straight down and up motion. This is because virtually every good server starts with his shoulders sideways to the net, or turns them sideways at the start of the motion. This means that the tossing arm turns sideways as well.

With the shoulders sideways, the tossing arm no longer points straight ahead. Instead it points toward the sideline. The more extreme the shoulder turn, the more directly the tossing arm points at the sideline.

[klacr]

Kyle, the more I look at your serve the more I see. I have no remedies. I'm not even sure how relevant it is. It just an observation, make of it what you will.

Your toss:

Seen from the side, when you release the ball, you are actually tossing the ball slightly backwards (towards the back fence). This is in stark contrast to Krajicek who releases and tosses the ball way out in front.

From behind your toss goes (correctly) in an arc but slightly too much to the left. Now picture the 3D view. You are tossing the ball slightly back over you and in an arc slightly too much the left to boot. That's quite a trick. It certainly contributes to that whiplash look I would imagine.

One of my weaknesses as a coach is I am sometimes unsure of the consequences of such a manoeuvre. I can see it...but whether it is truly holding back someone with your style of serve I'm not sure. I'd need the help of the better coaches on the forum to help me out here.

I'll take a look in the archive to see if anyone else does what you do. I have a clip of Tanner on my desktop. He doesn't.

Phil is right. You seem to have plenty of fans...deservedly so in my view too.

Thanks. I see what you mean. I've been told by numerous people my toss is still not far enough out into court. Then again, those people still don't have as good of a serve as I do. Compared to Krajicek, nearly everyone does not toss it far enough into the court.

Ditto on the Kyle fan club, but more to the point, Stotty has made a very good observation. When you go to the lateral view of your serve, all 4 serves are very consistent. Stop the quicktime video just as you are releasing the ball and follow along from there frame-by-frame and use the light stanchion in the background as your frame and you will see just how fabulously consistent your toss is.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2825&page=14

Remember, it is post 134. There are four serves and each shows exactly the same posterior movement of the ball from that reference light stanchion (spelling?).

Anyway, it is significant. When the observer watches your hand, he might think you are reaching forward with your toss, but that is not the reality. So you need to change this even if you change nothing else. You have to literally reach up after the ball as it leaves your hand and you better be reaching ever so slightly forward and the ball also better be going at least slightly forward from your hand. To do this you are going to have to bow and stretch and end up much more into the court. You are probably going to have to even look extended and even taller than you are.

And that's a good thing!

don

I wish I could be there standing on a stool grabbing your left upper arm and trying to pull you up to make you feel the left side extending even further, but you have a good imagination. I bet you've done the same thing to your own students.

Got it! Need to be taller on my serve. Thats a scary thing.
Imagination is my best friend.

The more I look, the more things I see, the complex Kyle's serve is becoming. No wonder so few players/coaches opt for this type of serve. It's certainly a good serve for Kyle, but would you teach it.

Complex? Thats funny. To me it's so easy and simple. No thinking involved.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[stotty]

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2825&page=14

Remember, it is post 134. There are four serves and each shows exactly the same posterior movement of the ball from that reference light stanchion (spelling?).

The more I look, the more things I see, the complex Kyle's serve is becoming. No wonder so few players/coaches opt for this type of serve. It's certainly a good serve for Kyle, but would you teach it.

It's really hard to tell because the quicktime clicks aren't minute enough to capture the moment, but I think Kyle is hitting the ball before the apex. His arms are working very simultaneously and must do so to enable him to meet the tiny window he has set for himself. I have said from the outset that Kyle is cramming a tad too much into too small a space. It would be hard for him to alter that now without upsetting the whole mechanism. Don't forget the poor bloke has to coach all day before mustering the strength to work on his own serve.

I do think releasing the ball more out in front of him is doable because it won't alter the chain of events, just make the ball easier to hit, especially when coupled with a toss slightly more to the right. These two things could also help Kyle balance better after completing his delivery.

As Phil rightly pointed out you cannot have a tossing arm pointing completely skywards after the ball release with Kyle's type of serve. There simply isn't the time. Tanner didn't have vertical arm after tossing either. But Tanner's arm was still a little higher than Kyle's...and this is what Kyle should aim for.

[tennis_chiro]

Kyle, the more I look at your serve the more I see. I have no remedies. I'm not even sure how relevant it is. It just an observation, make of it what you will.

Your toss:

Seen from the side, when you release the ball, you are actually tossing the ball slightly backwards (towards the back fence). This is in stark contrast to Krajicek who releases and tosses the ball way out in front.
...

Phil is right. You seem to have plenty of fans...deservedly so in my view too.

Ditto on the Kyle fan club, but more to the point, Stotty has made a very good observation. When you go to the lateral view of your serve, all 4 serves are very consistent. Stop the quicktime video just as you are releasing the ball and follow along from there frame-by-frame and use the light stanchion in the background as your frame and you will see just how fabulously consistent your toss is.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2825&page=14

Remember, it is post 134. There are four serves and each shows exactly the same posterior movement of the ball from that reference light stanchion (spelling?).

Anyway, it is significant. When the observer watches your hand, he might think you are reaching forward with your toss, but that is not the reality. So you need to change this even if you change nothing else. You have to literally reach up after the ball as it leaves your hand and you better be reaching ever so slightly forward and the ball also better be going at least slightly forward from your hand. To do this you are going to have to bow and stretch and end up much more into the court. You are probably going to have to even look extended and even taller than you are.

And that's a good thing!

don

I wish I could be there standing on a stool grabbing your left upper arm and trying to pull you up to make you feel the left side extending even further, but you have a good imagination. I bet you've done the same thing to your own students.

[stotty]

Kyle, the more I look at your serve the more I see. I have no remedies. I'm not even sure how relevant it is. It just an observation, make of it what you will.

Your toss:

Seen from the side, when you release the ball, you are actually tossing the ball slightly backwards (towards the back fence). This is in stark contrast to Krajicek who releases and tosses the ball way out in front.

From behind your toss goes (correctly) in an arc but slightly too much to the left. Now picture the 3D view. You are tossing the ball slightly back over you and in an arc slightly too much the left to boot. That's quite a trick. It certainly contributes to that whiplash look I would imagine.

One of my weaknesses as a coach is I am sometimes unsure of the consequences of such a manoeuvre. I can see it...but whether it is truly holding back someone with your style of serve I'm not sure. I'd need the help of the better coaches on the forum to help me out here.

I'll take a look in the archive to see if anyone else does what you do. I have a clip of Tanner on my desktop. He doesn't.

Phil is right. You seem to have plenty of fans...deservedly so in my view too.

[klacr]

Kyle, you are one cool, polite guy. You always have a kind word for every poster. Modest, too. You have a fan here!

Glad I have a fan.
I like to be respected and therefore need to give respect back. "Treat others how you like to be treated..." or something like that. Anyone else taught that? A bit old school perhaps but nothing wrong with that is there?

FACT: "Thank you" is the most underused form of compensation.

This forum and thread have been great and I'm learning new things every day. Time is a precious commodity so it does not get lost on me when fellow fans and teaching professionals donate a small chunk of their time to share their advice.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[klacr]

Kyle, I think what you may be refering to with this palm position thing is something that has always interested me about the serve. We all know that internal shoulder rotation is a big player in the spin and power on a serve. If one has more external shoulder rotation(or supinaiton) in the preparation phase of the serve, there is more to rotate (internal shoulder rotation)into the serve. I think the John talked about this some in his series on the Roddick serve. I think this is what Raonic is doing with his "hitting strings" facing up in his preparation. His arm, from the shoulder down, is extremely externally rotated.

yes stroke. That palm up helps some players keep the palm facing the side fence and not turning the racquet too far away from the ball. Again, I'm not looking to change my serve into this starting motion, however my palm being facing down so dramatically on my take back compared to other servers is noticable. And I feel it affects my trophy position. Maybe I'm just getting paranoid after all these video clips and analyzing my own serve. Paralysis by analysis anyone? Actually, I feel like I am making progress. But still room to grow.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[gzhpcu]

Kyle, you are one cool, polite guy. You always have a kind word for every poster. Modest, too. You have a fan here!

[stroke]

Phil, I'm just talking about the start of the set-up position. Mine would remain the same with racquet on edge a la my normal motion. But my palm does turn too far outward and nearly faces back fence. Part of that is from shoulder turn but I feel its gone too far. I may be going crazy but its not the first time.

Some pros have an obvious open palm on beginning of motion

Milos Raonic - Extreme example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vioaQUru2SA

Tomas Berdych
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAwiawHaFEg

Ivan Ljubicic
http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...euceFront1.mov

Ivo Karlovic - 50 second mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0RbHNOCaws

Roger Federer - Subtle example

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/roger_federer_09/rf_serve/rf_1st_serve/rf_1st_serve.html?RF1stSDeuceCourtLevelFront1.mov

Note: I'm not trying to model my serve after any of these men. Just using their palm open/up on set up to show you what I mean.

Sometimes when that palm gets forced down it ends up too far away behind you pointing in other direction. Having palm open helps these players take the hand back while not turning over and back to far. Try it home. Palm stays towards side or even over your head like you are holding a mirror above your head. Strings don't turn away from ball or head until you turn shoulders and by then its only to side fence, not back fence.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Kyle, I think what you may be refering to with this palm position thing is something that has always interested me about the serve. We all know that internal shoulder rotation is a big player in the spin and power on a serve. If one has more external shoulder rotation(or supinaiton) in the preparation phase of the serve, there is more to rotate (internal shoulder rotation)into the serve. I think the John talked about this some in his series on the Roddick serve. I think this is what Raonic is doing with his "hitting strings" facing up in his preparation. His arm, from the shoulder down, is extremely externally rotated.

[klacr]

Kyle,
I don't think you are that far off from Krajicek's position just before he gets to the trophy position, but there is a difference.

To see Kyle's quicktime serve, go to post 134, page 14:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=2825&page=14

Krajicek serve:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/richardkrajicek/richardkrajicek_serve/rk_1st_serve/rk_1st_serve.html?RK1stSDeuceCourtLevelSide2.mov

Gonzales serve:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/golden_legends/panchogonzales/panchogonzales.html?PGServeFront1.mov

As Stotty points out, it is really hard to change the fundamental rhythm. But if you do want to try to do it, realize that neither Gonzalez nor Krajicek ever get their weight as far back as you do. You probably get upwards of 60% of your weight on your right foot by the time you finish raising the racket at the beginning of the motion. If you want to emulate either of them, you have to find a way to change that fundamental rock. I think you could do it by continuing to do your little forward press with your hands as you lift them up at the beginning, but I would have you keep your weight forward or even rock it slightly forward as you did that. NOTE: this would create an entirely different feel to your rhythm/rock. But it might enable you to break out of that rearward weight loading and push you more toward the forward bowing that puts you that 4' out in front like Geoff is suggesting. (Look where RK's left foot lands in the court.)

Better do some flexibility stretches before you try it! Strongly recommend searching youtube for the following 12 minute workout: "lower back workout, with Dr. Eric Goodman"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI&noredirect=1

In fact, I'd recommend that for everyone regardless.

Good luck.

don

Flexibility is my middle name
Love the insight Don. Very Grateful.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton