klacr Strokes

[hockeyscout]

Stallion is quite kind. Perhaps a Clydesdale is a bit more accurate.

Being 6'6", high balls have never really been an issue for me even with a conservative grip.

I do agree that "receiving" the ball and letting it come to me is one of the best ways, but do you feel that would be advantageous to my overall game, knowing I like to step in and take the ball early?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

God no! Please, step in, use those nice hands of your's, pound the ball with your nice flat strokes, put your mass behind the ball on the rise and get on your horse to the net (especially with your serve) where you can use that size and superman wingspan of your's to put balls away! I think it'd break your spirit Kyle if you did anything else.

[hockeyscout]

He needs to step in and take the ball earlier, not later! More weight transfer, not less. Quicker time into net, not a slower time. More knee bend on the hitting foot step, not the spanish, fall back bs.

Kyle does this naturally if you look at his serve. I agree. Get in on that serve. He wants to do it, and likes it, so by all means proceed! 110 percent this is on the mark.

[hockeyscout]

Good call Phil. I actually do hold the racquet quite loosely. That's one reason why my timing has always been pretty good. I hold it loose so I can feel the tip of my frame and always know where my racquet head is. But may need to hold it even looser.

I feel like if I can catch the ball early, on the rise and contact is above the net I can extend through the line of the shot and still make it with not a whole lot of spin and arc. But on defensive shots I have a habit of threading the needle a little too tight and not giving myself the ideal spin and margin

Loving the engagement on this thread already. Thanks Guys.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Very interesting.

[10splayer]

Oh no, are we going to start talking about weight, linear momentum and mass?

[bobbyswift]

To get racket head under ball you just need to extend the elbow joint more and slightly earlier. Wont feel good at first but with reps problem solved.

[hockeyscout]

Oh no, are we going to start talking about weight, linear momentum and mass?

http://education-portal.com/academy/...es.html#lesson

[bobbyswift]

Sorry you might need to lesson wrist extension on gravity drop / pat the dog.

[klacr]

To get racket head under ball you just need to extend the elbow joint more and slightly earlier. Wont feel good at first but with reps problem solved.

Elaborate please bobbyswift. extend the elbow joint to where? How much earlier, is there a visual cue to time this so I know when to lower it?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[10splayer]

http://education-portal.com/academy/...es.html#lesson

Yes, thank you. I was just discussing this with someone else.. But linear momentum (which is movement of center of mass in straight line and can be expressed in any direction) is used to increase angular momentum. It has very little (if any) direct effect on racquet head speed. Make no mistake about it, angular momentum is the big player in RHS.

As far as mass goes, the racquet is the mass in the equation.. The ball only knows the RHS and path, a vector. It cares not whether the wielder of that implement is a big strapping stud like this, or a 70 pound boy.

But seriously, I don't want to talk about this...Lets keep the focus on Klacr and the topic at hand.

[hockeyscout]

Yes, thank you. I was just discussing this with someone else.. But linear momentum (which is movement of center of mass in straight line and can be expressed in any direction) is used to increase angular momentum. It has very little (if any) direct effect on racquet head speed. Make no mistake about it, angular momentum is the big player in RHS.

As far as mass goes, the racquet is the mass in the equation.. The ball only knows the RHS and path, a vector. It cares not whether the wielder of that implement is a big strapping stud like this, or a 70 pound boy.

But seriously, I don't want to talk about this...Lets keep the focus on Klacr and the topic at hand.

What is this term RHS? Racket head speed? Got it. Yes?

[10splayer]

Sorry you might need to lesson wrist extension on gravity drop / pat the dog.

yes, this is what I'm saying. The prolonged wrist extension is keeping the shaft "standing up" way to long. (at the pull, change of direction)

As I mentioned in another post, If you watch FEd (or anyone else for that matter) as they start to lower the hitting structure, the shaft is also starting to "lay down", (less extension) so when pulled, the racquet head doesn't have to travel so far to get under..

Not sure i've ever seen someone start the pull with that much upward shaft angle. It's got to be tough to work it under from that position.

If im misrepresenting your position, apologies..

[stroke]

Kyle, below is a post by 10splayer that he posted on the Sergi Bruguera forehand thread. I remembered it because I thought it really captured the essence of the atp type 3 forehand as related to spin production. One can't really tell from your footage as it relates to your forehand, but it may very well be something to look into as it relates to your forehand.

From 10splayer:
I mentioned this in the past with not much response, but what the heck, ill throw it out there again for discussion sake, as i believe it is applicable here.

Essentially, I believe there are two factors working in tandem to produce vertical racquet head speed and spin. They can be combined in a myriad of ways to produce different trajectories and spin rates. The first, of coarse, would be the "slope" to the racquet in the forward swing path (the degree of low to high). That is, how steep or shallow the shoulder is lifting the arm. This can be determined, by tracking the movement of the hand. And yes, the degree of low to high movement Sergi is exhibiting here is off the charts. Unbelievably steep angle of attack.

The other spin producer would be the mythical windshield wiper/hand and arm rotation. Verify this. Take a racquet and simulate impact position, with the shaft parallel to the ground and the tip pointed at say 3 o'clock. Now, rotate the tip down to 5, and then back to 3, and then up to say 12. This combination of pronation, internal rotation, and ulner to radial deviation, creates another vector. (in the vertical/spin producing sense)

So what's the point? It's my contention that the likes of Fed, Djoker etc, are relying more on the windshield wiping action to produce spin, (as opposed to the slope/path) then in the past. Indeed, on most "stock" forehands, the attack angle (slope) is relatively shallow (20 degrees or so upwards) while wiping the hell out of the thing. But why would they do that? To me, the answer is pretty simple. By combining a shallow path (which retains ball speed) and ample wiping action,(plenty of spin) they get the best of both worlds. Lower trajectory, 90 mile an hour bullets,with 3000 rpms of spin. They're not having to take huge "uppercuts" (like Sergi,which comes at the expense of velocity) to produce high spin rates.


Everything about Sergi's swing, screams "spin by path". The incredibly steep angle of attack, the early and pronounced leg lift/extension, the backward tilt of the torso, etc. Heck, it looks like he's hitting a damn topsin lob. And these are on balls that are in the middle of the court and not under pressure. These are pretty much "stock" shots. This kind of action (i would imagine) is going to produce massive spin, a loopier trajectory, and diminished ball speed compared to a guy like Djoker. (who has a similar grip)

Just my 02 cents.

[bottle]

What a treat. I was invited to post mine but never did. Guess I didn't have girlfriends with expensive enough cameras and was afraid that if I went all movie guy I'd never develop my personal tennis language.

It's funny that hockeyscout would immediately have recruited you to play defense in hockey as I once tried to do to put you at number six in America's Olympic eight-oared crew.

It's funny too how fast all this response has gone up. With notable exceptions whom I suspect will be moseying along. As for me I too like the idea of starting with forehand first. To buy time to think.

What did you say forehand grip is? 10splayer says you revealed it but I must have missed that part and will go back to look. Naturally I'm going to view through the prism of what I'm most thinking about just at the moment and that would be body tilt. With an overhand loop arm can flow into slight body bow similar to a golfer at address and hitting shoulder then rotate solid downward before it banks up (as in aeronautical banking).

Which brings me to Ed Weiss's book about Welby Van Horn, SECRETS OF A TRUE TENNIS MASTER. How lucky you are to personally know him and to have hit with him. With Ed Weiss's Swarthmore College connection Ed must either have known Ed Faulkner or have been influenced somehow by him.

Sort of like James Blake at Harvard. John M. Barnaby may have coached for the 50 years before James arrived but you can't tell me that James' topspin backhand service return didn't come directly from John M. Barnaby.

Well, I guess James could tell me but no one else.

[klacr]

Kyle, your forehand is similar to Jack Kramer's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQTp9Od2c_4

(Sorry to go back so far... but Kramer was famous for his forehand in his day...)

Don't apologize. That's a compliment.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[klacr]

Kyle, below is a post by 10splayer that he posted on the Sergi Bruguera forehand thread. I remembered it because I thought it really captured the essence of the atp type 3 forehand as related to spin production. One can't really tell from your footage as it relates to your forehand, but it may very well be something to look into as it relates to your forehand.

From 10splayer:
I mentioned this in the past with not much response, but what the heck, ill throw it out there again for discussion sake, as i believe it is applicable here.

Essentially, I believe there are two factors working in tandem to produce vertical racquet head speed and spin. They can be combined in a myriad of ways to produce different trajectories and spin rates. The first, of coarse, would be the "slope" to the racquet in the forward swing path (the degree of low to high). That is, how steep or shallow the shoulder is lifting the arm. This can be determined, by tracking the movement of the hand. And yes, the degree of low to high movement Sergi is exhibiting here is off the charts. Unbelievably steep angle of attack.

The other spin producer would be the mythical windshield wiper/hand and arm rotation. Verify this. Take a racquet and simulate impact position, with the shaft parallel to the ground and the tip pointed at say 3 o'clock. Now, rotate the tip down to 5, and then back to 3, and then up to say 12. This combination of pronation, internal rotation, and ulner to radial deviation, creates another vector. (in the vertical/spin producing sense)

So what's the point? It's my contention that the likes of Fed, Djoker etc, are relying more on the windshield wiping action to produce spin, (as opposed to the slope/path) then in the past. Indeed, on most "stock" forehands, the attack angle (slope) is relatively shallow (20 degrees or so upwards) while wiping the hell out of the thing. But why would they do that? To me, the answer is pretty simple. By combining a shallow path (which retains ball speed) and ample wiping action,(plenty of spin) they get the best of both worlds. Lower trajectory, 90 mile an hour bullets,with 3000 rpms of spin. They're not having to take huge "uppercuts" (like Sergi,which comes at the expense of velocity) to produce high spin rates.


Everything about Sergi's swing, screams "spin by path". The incredibly steep angle of attack, the early and pronounced leg lift/extension, the backward tilt of the torso, etc. Heck, it looks like he's hitting a damn topsin lob. And these are on balls that are in the middle of the court and not under pressure. These are pretty much "stock" shots. This kind of action (i would imagine) is going to produce massive spin, a loopier trajectory, and diminished ball speed compared to a guy like Djoker. (who has a similar grip)

Just my 02 cents.

Good stuff. Got it. Thanks 10splayer and stroke.

It's clear I'm never going to have the Bruguera type swing or the spin that is for sure but I don't think my game or style is ideally suited for that either. I am well aware of that wrist extension that was mentioned earlier. It is prolonged as I don't use much wrist in my swing pre-impact. Something I need to focus on and something I know I can do. Absolutely.

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton