The Myth of the Recovery Step: Forehand

[10splayer]

I'm not sure. I haven't really looked at a lot of video watching for this. But I think the one-hander is trying to keep the hips sideways unlike the two-hander who needs to bring the left/rear side through the shot. When I see a two-hander kicking the rear leg back, I try to correct this because I think this means they are not firing the left/rear side through the shot.

don

http://youtu.be/iJhbvEVX1NU

http://youtu.be/ql5xVpACt1Y

Tell me what you see here Don. I see hip rotation, but using the left leg (at a point in the forward swing) to slow the rate. Just a trace of kick back, before the left leg swings around. Even with a two hander, there seems to be varying degrees of this left foot countering mechanism. (from just "holding" the line, to substantial kick backs) I believe this is an important aspect to transferring kinetic energy to the torso.

But yes. I would imagine it may be more pronounced with a one hander compared to the two. Not sure. As I mentioned, it may have something to do with stance. (notice stance variation in Agassi video)

May be wrong, as a couple of random videos by no means prove a point in absolute terms.

At any rate, I am always interested in your opinion, as I consider you the real deal.

[tennis_chiro]

http://youtu.be/iJhbvEVX1NU

http://youtu.be/ql5xVpACt1Y

Tell me what you see here Don. I see hip rotation, but using the left leg (at a point in the forward swing) to slow the rate. Just a trace of kick back, before the left leg swings around. Even with a two hander, there seems to be varying degrees of this left foot countering mechanism. (from just "holding" the line, to substantial kick backs) I believe this is an important aspect to transferring kinetic energy to the torso.

But yes. I would imagine it may be more pronounced with a one hander compared to the two. Not sure. As I mentioned, it may have something to do with stance. (notice stance variation in Agassi video)

May be wrong, as a couple of random videos by no means prove a point in absolute terms.

At any rate, I am always interested in your opinion, as I consider you the real deal.

10splayer,
I can definitely see your point. No question there is some kickback in those backhands Andre is hitting.

I see less of it in Marat's clip. Part Marat's movement has to overcome the lateral momentum he created in running to the ball. He didn't get there early enough to plant his left foot and then move into the ball, so that view certainly complicates the analysis.

On the other hand, Andre is just rallying (see the end of the clip) here so that changes the perspective somewhat. I particularly like the third backhand he hits at 47 seconds into the clip. There he had enough time to line up and step into the backhand and the movement of the left side through the stroke is more what I would expect/want to see. Some of the other kickback action could be attributed to last minute adjustment of position. I have always described Andre's precise footwork as his best asset. Was he perhaps a little lax in his preparation to hit a ball in a warmup rally? On the other hand, is it fair to base the way the ball should be hit on the way it is hit when the player has enough time to get into perfect position?! In actual play, what percentage of balls are actually hit that way. In fact, I think it is better to base your approach on trying to develop perfect position even though you may not always be able to attain it. Of course, you have to practice shots that you are not able to fully prepare for and have to hit somewhat out of position, late or off balance.

I have kind of mixed feelings on spending a lot of time mastering the myriad different kinds of footwork patterns described by David Bailey. I don't doubt that those patterns exist, but I think the emphasis should be on trying to get that perfect position. I think that's what Andre did really well. I was really amazed by some of the exchanges in recent GS semis and finals, particularly when the Big Four are involved, at how big the hitting is and yet how classically correct they are hitting the ball time and again, even stepping is as opposed to hitting with open stances, and on deep balls.

I do a drill with my machines, or my students do, where they bounce back and forth between two short balls, then a little deeper and then finally full shots from the baseline. I have the next ball in the air out of the machine before they have completed the stroke on the current ball (i.e. as they are striking ball #1, ball #2 is already coming out of the machine). It makes them move quickly and react instinctively; inefficiencies in the stroke mechanics either get amplified or weeded out. But they have enough time to load very quickly and fire into the ball. Very neat drill. Once they get control of their footwork and balance to be able to handle what is almost 2 balls at once, they are better equipped to get in position for that "perfect" setup and shot.

To me, that is the job of good footwork, recreate your ideal shot as much as possible even though your opponent is trying to create your worst. Obviously, you still have to adjust when you don't quite get there, but I think players are too prone to settle for less than optimal position and end up with less than optimal outcomes as a result.

And it really would take a much more in depth examination of a lot more clips to really come to an evidence-based conclusions. But those are my thoughts. And thanks for being interested!

don

[tennis_chiro]

This really is complex

Basically what I'm saying is that to control over rotation of the hips, an open stance and closed stance work in different ways....In an open stance the left leg (off leg) will work back towards the load leg. (or scissor). In a closed stance backhand the load leg will tend to work backwards or into a more closed stance to control/slow down hip rotation.

If you look at the last FEd step down move (last one) in John's article, the load leg (right) will "kick back" or work into a more closed position...just like a closed stance backhand...This may just be stance dependent.
...

I just took another look back through the thread. I don't know how, but if I could I'd quote Stotty's point as well about "the leg as a post". When I look at the two Fed forehands in JY's article, in the clip you are quoting, Fed's last forehand, inside the baseline in a square or closed stance, the load leg providing the leg drive in the stroke is actually the left leg; in the first Fed forehand, where he is moving laterally and hitting off an open stance, the leg drive is coming from the right leg. Those are two entirely different situations and in one case lateral momentum has to be overcome to redirect power over the net; in the last shot, Fed is actually moving in the direction of the shot, although really very little. I wonder if we shouldn't consider the way we use the kick in the jump overhead to stabilize the body in mid air; I'm reminded of Vic Braden as we recognize his passing recently; Vic's video with Roscoe and Gideon Ariel talking about how much power into the ground goes into the serve; I've never heard a good argument reconciling that bit of biomechanics with all the effort to get off the ground to hit the serve.

Yeah, it is complicated!
don

[10splayer]

I just took another look back through the thread. I don't know how, but if I could I'd quote Stotty's point as well about "the leg as a post". When I look at the two Fed forehands in JY's article, in the clip you are quoting, Fed's last forehand, inside the baseline in a square or closed stance, the load leg providing the leg drive in the stroke is actually the left leg; in the first Fed forehand, where he is moving laterally and hitting off an open stance, the leg drive is coming from the right leg. Those are two entirely different situations and in one case lateral momentum has to be overcome to redirect power over the net; in the last shot, Fed is actually moving in the direction of the shot, although really very little. I wonder if we shouldn't consider the way we use the kick in the jump overhead to stabilize the body in mid air; I'm reminded of Vic Braden as we recognize his passing recently; Vic's video with Roscoe and Gideon Ariel talking about how much power into the ground goes into the serve; I've never heard a good argument reconciling that bit of biomechanics with all the effort to get off the ground to hit the serve.

Yeah, it is complicated!
don

Yes, I like Stotty's reference too, as posts from which we load and rotate about. And you're absolutely correct in the difference between the the open and square stance...My only point was (it seems) that regardless about which post/axis we rotate about, the other leg is used to control over rotation of the hips. But it is very complicated to quantify why these guys do what they do..

[don_budge]

"The Myth of the Recovery Step: Forehand"…it's a tie

Would love to get your thoughts on my latest article, "The Myth of the Recovery Step: Forehand"

Tied with "Secrets of Spanish Tennis: Culture and Infrastructure" for article of the month. Excellent post article posting discussion.

Tie breaker goes to "The Myth". Criteria? Personal bias.

[don_budge]

The Forehand Recovery Step…ala Roger Federer

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/music_videos/federer_fh_not_gone/index.html

The recovery step ala Roger Federer. Any questions?

When you talk about determining the shape of something as ethereal as a forehand swing you had better pay attention to the base from which it is swung. The swing starts down below as the shamanic Ben Hogan suggests and it works it way up the body.

The consideration with respect to modern tennis is this...if you design and build your swing on open or even semi open stance you are limiting yourself to one option. Heavy topspin. Having the ability to apply heavy topspin is obviously an asset...but the ability to flatten the stroke out enhances ones chances of hitting for depth and penetration. In order to hit this kind of ball you will need to be able to perform your swing on a platform of a closed or neutral stance. Which comes first the chicken or the egg? In this case it must be the closed and neutral stances with an eastern grip because as you are finding out...once you go western you can never go back.

This being the case there is only one player in the game today from which to emulate. His name of course is Roger Federer...The Once and Future King. When he leaves the game the void is going to be so immense that you will hear a giant sucking sound as the air makes leaving a giant balloon. The vacuum that his absence will create in the professional game will be as profound as the difference between a world with cell phones...and one that was without.

Once again...it is the "Forehand Not Gone" video. A beautiful work of art that I never tire of seeing or listening to. Even the words of the song ring in my ears to haunt me as a message to all of those beautiful women that I loved...and lost. A wistful tear can form in my eye when I think of them. But oh well...I am, or rather was a tennis player. Past tense...like them. Of all people I should realize that love means nothing. It is the irony of life in the end...at the end of the night. Good old Ferdinand.

Where was I...oh yes. Roger Federer hitting from less than perfect position. Because the base of his swing is built on the foundation of a closed or neutral stance he is compelled to swing his forehand with his feet, body and racquet lined up when he begins his move forward to the ball. Hitting from a less than perfect position...is an art. I am sure that you will agree with me when you look at this video. This is a beautiful enigmatic piece of work courtesy of John Yandell. Who is the artist of the song...btw John?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/music_videos/federer_fh_not_gone/index.html

In the music video "Forehand Not Gone", Roger Federer is hitting four forehands from less than perfect position. Notice though that he dutifully attempts to create perfect position at the moment of impact.

fh 1...backing up, left foot plants first and as he swings into the ball the right foot is backing up in line with the front

fh 2...moving to his right, right foot plants first and left comes swinging into line as he swings into the ball

fh 3...backing up, left foot plants first and right foot slides backwards into position as he swings into the ball

fh 4...backing up, left foot plants first and the right foot slides backwards into position as he swings into the ball

In the video Roger is swinging at four forehands and in three of them he is running around his backhand to his left. Since his momentum is carrying him to his left he plants his left foot first to assure himself that he has ample room to make his swing yet at the same time his right foot is backing up to bring himself into alignment with the ball. You see also that he must make a last moment adjustment by taking to the air to create just a bit more room to make his swing. Yet his head and body are perfectly still at the moment of impact.

In the single ball that he is moving to his right, at the last moment he plants his right foot a bit forward towards the net from his left foot as he tries to take the ball a bit earlier and at the same time his left foot is moving towards the ball so that at the moment of impact he is in as close to proper alignment with the ball as humanly possible.

The music video is simply a perfect example of how the forehand should be played when perfect position on the ball is not possible. Normally when I am watching Federer in a match, I like to watch just him without taking my eyes off him to watch the ball or his opponent. Coincidentally, I heard Rod Laver suggest the same thing. For instance, in the music video one can really appreciate the grace and perfect balance that Federer has when he is in the moment of truth...and that is when he has his body aligned to make his move on the ball from “get in position”. Even when he is actually in the air, off the ground, he is somehow able to achieve nearly perfect stability as he is swinging and this is evidenced with the still positioning of his head. He has the ability to achieve the Hoganesque lower body movement to the ball to initialize his swing...even with less than perfect position.

Another absolutely stunningly, brilliant music video...John. Catchy tune, too. The music coupled with the maestro's footwork and low center of gravity create...poetry in motion. Be still my beating heart!

[10splayer]

Good call, good video...And as usual, I see what I want to see. hehe. But yes, in every one of these stances and movement patterns, FED is using the "off" leg to counter over rotation of the hips....The forward rotation on a forehand is counter clockwise, but the off leg is moving clockwise at some point. Least that's what i see.

[10splayer]

Btw, am i talking too much about this? U guys feeling like Chuck?

http://youtu.be/TxefPeKn_Rs

[tennis_chiro]

Btw, am i talking too much about this? U guys feeling like Chuck?

http://youtu.be/TxefPeKn_Rs

That was a really good clip! But to answer Imus's question, it does make a difference. I will try to post some video in the next few days of a couple of students I worked with tonight (that I've been working with just under 4 years) and how I see evidence of this conundrum with their footwork on the two-hander.

Not feeling like Chuck at all, but I really liked his outburst. And yes, there have been times when I have wanted to express myself like that, but definitely not here!

don

[10splayer]

Ill look forward to your students and point of view.


I use to like to start my morning off with Imus...Charles would go off just a couple times a year. Here's a couple more. Hope you like..

http://youtu.be/qEKOcPsOcFU

http://youtu.be/FbI2BuoN2iw

[tennis_chiro]

Ill look forward to your students and point of view.


I use to like to start my morning off with Imus...Charles would go off just a couple times a year. Here's a couple more. Hope you like..

http://youtu.be/qEKOcPsOcFU

http://youtu.be/FbI2BuoN2iw

I liked "anorexic flyrod with a cowboy hat on"!

don

[don_budge]

Nurse...

Ill look forward to your students and point of view.


I use to like to start my morning off with Imus...Charles would go off just a couple times a year. Here's a couple more. Hope you like..

http://youtu.be/qEKOcPsOcFU

http://youtu.be/FbI2BuoN2iw

Nurse Nightenstupid.

[10splayer]

yeah those were great lines.

[drsous70]

Recovery step

Thanks for this guys,

Its funny that I have always taught this but you always hear other theories. Quite simply the longer you can keep the racquet moving in the direction of the shot the better. This creates more accuracy, power and less miss hits. Too many players will brush the racquet up or to the side too early and hit weak over spun shots or frame it. If there is enough force in the shot and enough drive from the legs, I find the recovery step happens quite naturally. The spine rotates and the force brings the body around.
But you guys have it spot on and proved it perfectly. The recovery step only starts once the racquet has fully extended in the direction of the shot.

Have you done an article on the fact that players don't need to "brush" the ball or force topspin? The way the shoulder and wrist are designed will naturally cause the racquet to rise as it moves forward and as long as the grip, footwork and grip are correct, topspin will happen fairly naturally. or am I wrong? I am sure you would have done an article on this, where to I find it?
Thanks guys, I loved this one and it reinforced my philosophy. Great clips also to prove your points. Is it possible to get some to use for video analysis to show players on court when no wifi is available?

[johnyandell]

DrS,

On the clips yes. You need to upgrade to QuickTime Pro which is $30 online

https://www.apple.com/quicktime/extending/

That allows you to right click and save any Tennisplayer clip. Perfect for remote viewing and side by side.

On the topspin, you might like these which discuss the relationship between the extension of the swing and the rotation of the hand and arm in the wiper finish:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/your_forehand_and_the_modern_forehand/the_forward_swing/the_forward_swing.html

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/avancedtennis/john_yandell/your_forehand_and_the_modern_forehand/hand_arm_rotation/hand_arm_rotation.html