Meet Bryn

[stotty]

Okay while we're sitting here twiddling our thumbs waiting for the next big event, let's look at a serve.

Meet Bryn. He's 14 years old. I doubt he weighs 8 stone yet he has power, lots of power. He is a fine athlete, and I cannot remember coaching anyone as quick as this fellow.

I feel Bryn has a fine looking serve with lots of potential. Yet he doesn't quite make it. He misses too many first serves and cannot achieve consistency.

I would be keen to know the thoughts other tennis coaches out there...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0UUXDDvIBs&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVdPmxPBEas&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiU9KPfuGRg&feature=youtu.be

Sometimes I think I am the luckiest development coach alive. I have so many students like this to work with, talented athletes. It makes the job interesting.

[bottle]

Watching these three videos immediately improved my own serve.

Who is the Russian development coach (in G.B.) working with 9-year-old Cate Cowper and other young people?

We, my partner Hope who is Cate's granny and I, have been invited to stay with Cate's parents and should be coming to England within the next year.

At which time of course I hope to look you up.

[GeoffWilliams]

Have him look at this angle: http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/...ationSide2.mov

It shows: he does not reach/extend his shoulder back enough, etc. Chest is too open, toss too far back, contact too far back, not enough racquet path way, Stiff arms the ball after contact.

[bottle]

This might help my serve too except that I like an open chest.

[EdWeiss]

Thanks for posting the video. I agree your student is athletic and there are definitely some good elements to his serve. Using the middle video (slow motion side) here are my quick thoughts:

08: his tossing arm shoulder is dipping (pointing) down towards the ground more than you would like to see. This may be one of the causes of the issues listed below although by the time he gets to the trophy position his shoulders are in the correct tilted position.
09: same issue and you also see his head leaning too forward putting him off-balance
012: trophy position – there is no archer’s bow in the upper body. Also, while the knee of his left foot is pointing a little forwards (that is a good thing) his back knee is pointing straight sideways or even a little back towards the back fence. But on the plus side, the shoulder tilt is good and he certainly looks quite athletic in this position.
014-015: looks like a good racket drop to me. Whether he gets his racket, the ball and the target in a line as Don Brosseau advocates I am not sure.
016-018: hitting action – to me it looks like his momentum is going too much to the side and not enough forwards in the direction of the target. His right leg kicks to the right side and not back and his head is leaning to the left. There also seems to be a little jackknifing going on.

I could not tell from the video how much he is pronating.

Thanks again for sharing the video and the opportunity to comment on it.

[stotty]

Thank you...

Thanks for posting the video. I agree your student is athletic and there are definitely some good elements to his serve. Using the middle video (slow motion side) here are my quick thoughts:

08: his tossing arm shoulder is dipping (pointing) down towards the ground more than you would like to see. This may be one of the causes of the issues listed below although by the time he gets to the trophy position his shoulders are in the correct tilted position.
09: same issue and you also see his head leaning too forward putting him off-balance
012: trophy position – there is no archer’s bow in the upper body. Also, while the knee of his left foot is pointing a little forwards (that is a good thing) his back knee is pointing straight sideways or even a little back towards the back fence. But on the plus side, the shoulder tilt is good and he certainly looks quite athletic in this position.
014-015: looks like a good racket drop to me. Whether he gets his racket, the ball and the target in a line as Don Brosseau advocates I am not sure.
016-018: hitting action – to me it looks like his momentum is going too much to the side and not enough forwards in the direction of the target. His right leg kicks to the right side and not back and his head is leaning to the left. There also seems to be a little jackknifing going on.

I could not tell from the video how much he is pronating.

Thanks again for sharing the video and the opportunity to comment on it.

Good comments, Ed.

I think his problems may lie right at the start. A deep ball toss (lowering the left shoulder) may be the reason why he contacts the ball the ball at slightly varying heights. Plus, his method of toss isn't ice-cream cone enough and we get a slight break in the elbow which makes the toss erratic. He always throws the ball too much to the left which results in poor balance after the delivery (head veering left...kick back too much to the right). Any jackknifing is also the the result of a poor toss.

His contact is just in front of the bridge of the nose (as JY recommends) so I am not seeing Geoff's point on that one. The archers bow may be a step to far for Bryn at the present time. His arms are also very loose and not stiff in any way after contact. His whole game has a fluid looseness to it.

I love Bryn's knee bend and his drive upwards and forwards. I like the way his elbow/shoulder/shoulder line up. I like slightly his more acute throwing action (angle of the break in the elbow) than most players have....Lendl-like. The good qualities lead me to believe Bryn has a good serve in him and we aren't too far away.

bottle, you ever visit the UK, let me know...we have much to talk about.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

[EdWeiss]

yes good thoughts regarding the dipping of the shoulder making the tossing action longer/more complicated.

[vrc10s]

Timing

I think his form is developing, but I would suggest that he needs to work on the coordination of the left and right arms. If you watch at 10: his racquet starts up before his tossing arm. His racquet then needs to wait for the ball in the trophy position. Most good servers the tossing arm goes up first or at least at the same time.

I can't remember a great serve where the racquet arm goes up first.

Good pronation, some leg drive, looks pretty good.

[don_budge]

Development Coaching...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0UUXDDvIBs&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVdPmxPBEas&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiU9KPfuGRg&feature=youtu.be

Sometimes I think I am the luckiest development coach alive. I have so many students like this to work with, talented athletes. It makes the job interesting.

It shows: he does not reach/extend his shoulder back enough, etc.

Thanks for posting the video.
08: his tossing arm shoulder is dipping (pointing) down towards the ground more than you would like to see.

I think his form is developing, but I would suggest that he needs to work on the coordination of the left and right arms.

Some pretty good observations. Definitely a work in process and a perfect service motion is certainly within his capabilities with the kind of attention to detail here from the various coaches.

Starting with the set up position it looks quite good. The set-up position is the precursor to the backswing. He encounters a bit of a hitch in his backswing that several coaches have picked up on. There seems to be a bit of a lack of engagement with the arms.

I would like to see a couple of bobbing motions to begin the backswing with both hands acting together in a forwards and up motion to a downwards and backwards motion. Rocking the arms so to speak. This motion is tantamount to a waggle in golf which is actually a sort of a mini-swing rehearsal. It helps to begin a motion such as the golf swing or a tennis serve instead of starting it from a static position.

Once he gets the feeling of this mutual engagement of the arms being dependent upon the rocking motion of the shoulders that little hitch just might disappear resulting in a much smoother transition to the forward motion. The timing issue is crucial in a service motion and somehow he looks to be lacking that rhythm that classic motions are dependent upon. The rhythm that holds up under pressure and scrutiny.

The throwing hand appears to make too big of a sweep downward as Ed points out and he should endeavor to hold that downward motion to where his hand meets his left thigh. The racquet arm abbreviates in his backswing in an effort to compensate for this throwing hand miscue. Try to get more "width" in his backswing. Try to get him to push his right hand further from his right ear in his backswing.

The serving motion has three big circles. The backswing...the circular motion behind the back...and the forward swing up and over the ball into the follow through. He has compromised the first circle by not getting enough "width" in his backswing and this compromises his "roller coaster" loop behind him. As a consequence he gives the impression that he is into his forward swing with less than some percentage of his potential energy.

He does line up the elbows and the shoulders extremely well but he is late in doing so. I feel that at the the 10 second mark in the slow-mo clip his shoulders should be more in line with his feet and pointed at his target...with his throwing hand high releasing the ball.

So it gets a little convoluted...start by calibrating the hands at the beginning in the waggle motion then emphasize the lining up to the shot before the racquet drop with a bit more width and the ducks in a row...elbow, shoulder, elbow I hear Macci chanting his mantra.

You're a lucky guy Stotty. The kid is lucky to have you...as we are as well. Thanks for sharing...it's very generous of you as always.

[tennis_chiro]

Nice serve. For all the faults we are able to find in this motion, his positions at the bottom of the power drop and impact look very good. I think that position at about 15.5 seconds shows he gets on "the line" early enough to generate tremendous power. It's surprising because just a little before that he looks like he's going to have a really hard time getting there, but he does. And for that reason, I would be hesitant to take too much of his natural motion away from him. But at 14, he can suffer for a couple of months. Still, it's pretty good already.

I don't like to see that dropping left shoulder any more than anyone else. I would try to stand him up a lot taller at the beginning of his serve. I like to tell my players to feel "regal", like they are in charge, surveying their realm, which they absolutely control. I'd have him do some toss and catch and toss and catch ... drills to cement the rhythm and even out the action of the arms. Doing the Figure 8's will also even out the timing of the right and left hand by swinging the racket back with a little more momentum and giving him the feel of the wider backswing that don_budge is talking about. My argument for the toss-and-catch is that if you can do the motion forward and backwards ad nauseum in practice, you might be able to reproduce the appropriate rhythm when it matters on break point down or match point up!

Then there is the question of his internal shoulder rotation. He actually has very good snap and you can see just after impact that the racket face has turned from facing the target to facing the side fence in very short order. However, the troubling thing is when you look at the angle between his forearm and the racket shaft, ... it does not begin to change until his forearm is about 20 degrees from perpendicular to the ground - way too late when we compare to good servers, especially Sampras. So, try my "Burp"! He should be able to "Burp" the ball over the net into the service box while you keep your finger under his right elbow. Stotty, I think you are familiar with those drills in my videos. But whether or not you use that drill, there is definitely something missing there. I think that alone will add significant pop to his serve. But the consistency won't come without some modification in the tossing action.

And, yes, it does look like you have a lot of talented kids to work with. And they are lucky to have you!

don

[don_budge]

Simply put...

Nice discussion tennis_chiro and the rest. The issue is elongated tossing motion with an abbreviated backswing.

To simplify...shorten the tossing motion which eliminates the left shoulder dip. Create more width in the backswing by pushing the right hand away from the right ear. At the widest part of the swing the tossing hand releases the ball...then you have "elbow, shoulder, elbow". Toss the ball in the right spot and there you have it. Perfect service motion.

If only it were so simple.

[stotty]

The way forward...

I would suggest that he needs to work on the coordination of the left and right arms. If you watch at 10: his racquet starts up before his tossing arm. His racquet then needs to wait for the ball in the trophy position. Most good servers the tossing arm goes up first or at least at the same time.

I can't remember a great serve where the racquet arm goes up first.

Victor Pecci went with the racket arm first. Some guys get away with...my kid doesn't. How does Wawrinka do what he does and yet it all comes together? I guess the critical question to ask of your students when they do something less conventional is: "do they get away with it"?

Well, there have been some great contributions and I would like to thanks everyone for their input.

To get things in to realistic perspective, Bryn has a 30 minute lesson per week. With this in mind it has to be one step at a time and progress may take a while. The good thing is he is a listener and always tries to carry out what is asked. With a kid like Bryn you can chisel away and get their in the end despite having limited time.

I would like to see a couple of bobbing motions to begin the backswing with both hands acting together in a forwards and up motion to a downwards and backwards motion. Rocking the arms so to speak. This motion is tantamount to a waggle in golf which is actually a sort of a mini-swing rehearsal. It helps to begin a motion such as the golf swing or a tennis serve instead of starting it from a static position.

Once he gets the feeling of this mutual engagement of the arms being dependent upon the rocking motion of the shoulders that little hitch just might disappear resulting in a much smoother transition to the forward motion.

I don't like to see that dropping left shoulder any more than anyone else. I would try to stand him up a lot taller at the beginning of his serve. I like to tell my players to feel "regal", like they are in charge, surveying their realm, which they absolutely control.

yes good thoughts regarding the dipping of the shoulder making the tossing action longer/more complicated.

I am going to set about synching the arms and and getting him off to a more "regal" start...Becker-like. I'll get to it this Saturday when I see him. I'll post our progress.

tennis chiro, I didn't quite grasp your internal shoulder rotation point.

[tennis_chiro]

...

tennis chiro, I didn't quite grasp your internal shoulder rotation point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVdPmxPBEas&feature=youtu.be

He seems to be internally rotating pretty well by the number of degrees change the racket face goes through immediately after contact. But perhaps the contact point is too far to the right. If the racket is actually extended straight up from the shoulder internal rotation is a very small contributor to ball speed because the force on the ball and the speed of the strings actually contacting hte ball is a function of the lever arm from the axis of rotation to the contact point. If the arm is straight up, it is in effect the axis of rotation and the lever arm is only the amount off center from the center of the strings that the ball is hit. What I'm describing is an exaggeration, but I think a little of this is happening.

Another way to look at it is the internal rotation of the shoulder should happen mostly at the shoulder joint, but there is a contribution from the elbow joint (more like, uh oh, pronation), but that should normally be secondary. Try moving the racket or just your hand and in particular your thumb through the arc of internal shoulder rotation that takes place right before and after contact. You should see that your arm bends at the elbow quickly after contact. (You can check the stroke archive easily, but you'll see right away that they all do this except Agassi). Now try doing it while holding your upper arm in a fixed position and you'll see you can still get some internal rotation (pronation) without the shoulder involved, but that's not where the real power comes from.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/petesampras/ps_serve/ps_serve_armaction/ps_serve_armaction.html?PS1stSAdArmActionSide.mov

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/andreagassi/aa_serve/aa_arm_action/aa_arm_action.html?AA1stSDeuceArmActionSide2.mov

It's hard to be sure what we are seeing with the limits of youtube video replay and I'd like to see the slomo of the rear view as well, but there is definitely something amiss there.

I hope that clarifies what I "think" I am seeing.

don

[don_budge]

The camera lies...or at least it can be deceptive

tennis chiro, I didn't quite grasp your internal shoulder rotation point.

I keep picking up on little things. I just noticed that our boy Bryn takes a small step backwards with his right foot when he starts his backswing which perhaps makes his stance a little too wide where his backswing is not wide enough. Strange.

This backward impetus also seems to be inducing a rather pronounced lateral shift backwards and then he of course must make the same journey forwards to make contact with the ball.

Sometimes beginner golfers make this same sort of lateral shift which is the kiss of death when it comes to generating power. It is the turning of the shoulders that provides much of the power in combination with the thrusting upwards of the legs and the throwing motion of the arm.

The force applied to a service motion is one of turning and upwards...the back and forth motion is a waste of movement and only will serve to kill the rhythm and natural power of the motion. It is no wonder that there is the distinct impression that there is something really lacking in his striking of the ball. There is a lot of unrealized potential left in his service stroke.

Interesting enough here is another case where a service motion appears to be pretty decent but upon closer inspection it reveals a number of flaws...convolution. The devil is in the details.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVdPmxPBEas&feature=youtu.be

I think that in this case the boy will be well advised to:

-Make the downward movement with his racquet and shoulders until his tossing hand meets his thigh.

-Then he needs to lift and turn his shoulders and widen that backswing...chest to the sky. When lifting push the right hand away from the right ear.

-Once he gets to this point he can merely turn a bit more and lean back allowing the racquet to drop behind him and he is set to go.

-The most important position of any swing is at the point where it is morphing from backswing to forward swing.

He does not have all of his ducks in a row although he sort of gives that impression because he does get to "elbow...shoulder...elbow" somehow. But it is a bit deceptive because of the manner in which he gets there.

That backwards step was an eyeopener. I didn't notice that at first. I think video is overrated somehow...it seems to me that if I had seen this in person that little movement would not have escaped me. Another thing is that we cannot see just how high it is that he is actually tossing that ball. After looking at it some more it seems that he is waiting an inordinate amount of time for the darn thing to return to earth.

[don_budge]

A fluid British Service motion...Fundamentally Correct (FC)

Here is a rather nice fluid service motion by none other than your Tim Henman. Notice that there is very little lateral movement backwards and pay attention to the width of his backswing.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/strokearchive/pro_men/timhenman/th_serve/th_1st_serve/th_1st_serve.html?TH1stSDeuceSide1.mov

I love the fact that he is going forwards to the net. I believe that the service motion should have this element of forward momentum...even if the player is not going to follow it to the net. It is fundamentally sound technique.