Racket Head Speed

[hockeyscout]

I've been waiting to hear for a long time what exactly it is that hockeyscout finds missing in so many of the players that he dismisses as poor athletes or at least poor movers if not strikers of the ball. So it's great to see him contribute some specific analysis. It seems to me he is emphasizing that a player has to get in position early enough to load and use his legs and generate power from the bottom up. As for his longing for more "bellybutton" and hip movement, this seems to be similar to the emphasis of Jack Broudy's "8 Board" (see http://8board.com/). I've seen them but never actually employed it as a tool. I know a lot of esteemed teachers and players who swear by it. And I like the concept.

In the subject video that is being dissected here, I think there is a lot of room for better more precise footwork, lower body and trunk loading and, basically, 8-board kind of movement. But without better, higher speed video with more frames per second, it is pretty hard to tell exactly what the subject hitter is doing here. You certainly develop greater power when you drive the engine from the center of the core, but if that mechanism is not that fast at the extremes of its range of motion and the actual timing mechanism of the tennis swing has to be pretty brief to be realistically applicable when the ball starts going faster than the superhighway speed limit. If the ball is sitting there (golf) you can certainly get away with a more complicated and longer swing; not on a groundstroke on a fast deep ball, much less on a return of serve. Certainly, even in those situations, major power should come from that core leg-hip-back-shoulder power engine, but it must be utilised in a way that respects the premium on timing and a lack of much actual time.

don

Thank you Don.

A very nice post.

I tried to keep it as basic as I could and touch on the small things that need attention first.

By the way, do not use the 8board. It's bad. That's not how you want to set up foundation. Its amusing. Do not use it, please. If you'd like I could explain why. Russian's invented that in the 1970's, and their has been a lot of documented studied on how to use it, and its effectiveness, and its not good.

I invested in a vibration platform a year ago, and use a LOT of mats, and bare feet in practice. It's worked, and in time we will get the skill-sets in place I want to see.

As for this guy, I could see his issue 10 seconds into the video. I watched the whole video, however, I knew after a few moments how what I saw in the first ten seconds would tie into everything else.

These issues could be fixed simply by the way.

I don't need to go into slow motion or run him hard, it is very apparent what needs to be fixed.

The foundations that are in place are the foundations that are in place.

The end result will always be the same with what I am seeing in the first ten seconds.

[stroke]

10splayer, any of us that have seen pro players warm up have seen the same kind of lack of intensity, for lack of a better word, that the player you presented showed. I am sure we have all seem Federer warm up, and he is just very nonchalantly hitting the ball. It was clear to me, just watching the guy hitting, that he is a very good player. Not at all surprised that he had a world ranking. And I do not think there will be a type 4 and then type 5 forehand, even though hockey is seeking it. Heck, in women's tennis, there are hardly any type 3's. I think Federer has taken technique about as close to perfect as we are going to see.

[hockeyscout]

http://youtu.be/Od_7c6eD1Qk

Gentlemen, are the VAST amount of movement patterns running? I would say no. In fact, I would argue that he is trying his best NOT to run in a manner that forces his center of gravity to fall outside his base support. Specifically, how he always tries to "lead" with the foot closest to the ball whenever possible. For all you load/kinetic chain guys, why would that be? I def made a mistake in posting this video...It doesn't really do JK justice, in that it is casual hitting. I thought that went without saying...It's certainly obvious though he is nonchalant. In fact, that was my point originally, that as casual as he is going about this, it translates well into end point racquet head speed.

I am sorry to say, the athlete in this video is LIGHT years behind NBA, NFL and track - fielder athletes. He's a 2 out of 10. Lots to be done.

[10splayer]

Jk is an interesting player. If you watch him hit, he isn't the most "explosive' player you'd ever see. (for that level) And yet, he is very good mover..Stotty made the comparison to Mecir, and Jk does have that kind of smooth, never rushed, complete control look to him. I can tell you this first hand, he is difficult to wrong foot, get off balance, he's great in and out of corners. He makes it look easy..

But yeah, this video, is not an accurate depiction of the speed that he can play and handle.

[10splayer]

I am sorry to say, the athlete in this video is LIGHT years behind NBA, NFL and track - fielder athletes. He's a 2 out of 10. Lots to be done.

This is the issue, his coaches probably think tennis is unique, and do not understand other people in other sports face the same dilemma's he is facing with his athlete.

Tennis running is no different than NBA or NFL movement.

I am not sure you understand movement in the way I understand movement, or track coaches understand movement 10splayer.

I can reply to your analysis on running if you like, and maybe it might put things in proper sports perspective for you.


Would you mind?

You made no mistake in posting the video.

It did the athlete perfect justice. Nothing will change in a video where he is trying harder because the issues he has at slow speed will not magically correct themselves at high speed.

Actually, it is good you did not post it at high speed, as I can already tell you ten to fifteen more problems would have cropped up and reared their head, and I would have likely made ten posts.

And no, I am sorry, everything he is doing does not translate well into more end point racket speed. Quite the opposite. It's translating into slower speed. Its kind of sad. The guy has terrific hands, however, likely everyone was all fan boy with him and did not understand how to fix 2/3's of his problems from the collarbone down.

Please, read my post again.

Is their anything now technically I can touch on here that is getting lost in translation?

Does anyone have any issues with my conclusions, or see anything they'd like to be expanded apon?

And JK, great hands.

However, people should have thought when he was 8 or 9, and seen his propensity for great hands and asked "What's next!"

They didn't. They feel in love with the wrong things.

Regards
worldsworsttenniscoachwhoknowsshitaboutgripsandwil lhaveahardtimehavingameaningfullongtermrelationshi pwithatenniscoach

Are you going to answer my question? Why is he is not using gravity steps, crossover movement (forced movement)

Please be specific.

Oh and by the way, I don't think JK is the perfect tennis player. I actually give him more shit then anyone. He's a really good guy..

[hockeyscout]

10splayer, any of us that have seen pro players warm up have seen the same kind of lack of intensity, for lack of a better word, that the player you presented showed. I am sure we have all seem Federer warm up, and he is just very nonchalantly hitting the ball. It was clear to me, just watching the guy hitting, that he is a very good player. Not at all surprised that he had a world ranking. And I do not think there will be a type 4 and then type 5 forehand, even though hockey is seeking it. Heck, in women's tennis, there are hardly any type 3's. I think Federer has taken technique about as close to perfect as we are going to see.

There is always a next.

[10splayer]

I am sorry to say, the athlete in this video is LIGHT years behind NBA, NFL and track - fielder athletes. He's a 2 out of 10. Lots to be done.

This is the issue, his coaches probably think tennis is unique, and do not understand other people in other sports face the same dilemma's he is facing with his athlete.

Tennis running is no different than NBA or NFL movement.

10splayer - I can reply to your analysis on running if you like, and maybe it might put things in proper sports perspective for you. Would you mind?

You made no mistake in posting the video. It did the athlete perfect justice. Nothing will change in a video where he is trying harder because the issues he has at slow speed will not magically correct themselves at high speed.

Actually, it is good you did not post it at high speed, as I can already tell you ten to fifteen more problems would have cropped up and reared their head, and I would have likely made ten posts.

And no, I am sorry, everything he is doing does not translate well into more end point racket speed. Quite the opposite. It's translating into slower speed. Its kind of sad. The guy has terrific hands, however, this whole thread was so fan boy, and I saw poor 2/3's that was killing his stroke. Killing it. Sad, because again, this dude has world class hands.

Please, read my post again, I explained how he is canceling out his power.

Is their anything now technically I can touch on here that is getting lost in translation?

Does anyone have any issues with my conclusions, or see anything they'd like to be expanded apon?

And JK, great hands.

However, people should have thought when he was 8 or 9, and seen his propensity for great hands and asked "What's next!" They didn't. They feel in love with the wrong things and did not focus on the other 2/3 that would have made this guy into a world class player in the top echelon. Its such a small difference from going from good to great. Tiny.

Regards
worldsworsttenniscoachwhoknowsshitaboutgripsandwil lhaveahardtimehavingameaningfullongtermrelationshi pwithatenniscoach

It's interesting that you acknowledge he has great hands, and yet you're vehement about how the hands and feet must work together. I can tell you first hand, that Jk has a wonderful, sense of how these two elements work together, even if he is not as explosive as you'd like to see. In fact, it's one of his strengths.

[hockeyscout]

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[hockeyscout]

It's interesting that you acknowledge he has great hands, and yet you're vehement about how the hands and feet must work together. I can tell you first hand, that Jk has a wonderful, sense of how these two elements work together, even if he is not as explosive as you'd like to see. In fact, it's one of his strengths.

Now watch Grigor practice. He's cruising along at a nice clip, and getting better. Steps in. He's revving the engine nicely. This is in the ballpark of what I need, and I am sure before he hit the court he did at least an hour of start up work, and was going at it since the start of the day with one thing or another, so he's never what we call COLD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhjzBoPoTJg

[10splayer]

I actually do not believe in explosive movement. You are putting words in my mouth. Please don't.

Read the three posts please, geez, he plays the game rib cage up. What more can be said. He is raw, however, lots of potential if he gets the neurological chain, and athleticism in order.

Clearly, we see two different games here!

Now watch Grigor practice.

He's cruising along at a nice clip, and getting better. Steps in. He's revving the engine nicely. This is in the ballpark of what I need, and I am sure before he hit the court he did at least an hour of start up work, and was going at it since the start of the day with one thing or another, so he's never what we call COLD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhjzBoPoTJg

I'm enjoying this too. Let's talk later ( anyone else too) I'm working for awhile so I'll check in later

[hockeyscout]

I'm enjoying this too. Let's talk later ( anyone else too) I'm working for awhile so I'll check in later

10splayer this is magic for us.

I want to learn what you do, so we can counter it in a match.

We've obviously got different systems, beliefs, roadmaps and technical beliefs.

If I can learn what you do, and understand it, I can shape a program to play against it effectively.

Counterstrike.

Hey 10splayer, what do you think of Gabby Price?

You've probably seen the best kids in the country. What do you think? Video is from 2012 when she was nine and Macci was comparing her to Capriati.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i-eH1qbXRA

For us, it's interesting how she plays.

[hockeyscout]

I'm enjoying this too. Let's talk later ( anyone else too) I'm working for awhile so I'll check in later

This thread is great. Really looking forward to getting challenged here by high end tennis people, and field testing our beliefs.

[10splayer]

Here's a couple things to chew on....

If you believe (as I do) that tennis is played (predominately) within a two and 3 step radius...Why would tennis player want to move in a "forced way" as a sprinter does...which is a perpetual state of imbalance. (that's how you move fast)

Footwork in tennis is divided into two basic forms, movements that create a center of gravity outside the base of support (gravity steps, crossover, etc) and one that promotes keeping the center of gravity inside the base. (shuffle step, step outs, playing with the feet apart) If you watch Dimitrov, it is very apparent to me that he is ALWAYS trying to lead with the foot closet to the ball, which keeps his center of gravity inside his stance. He will only "run" if the need arises.. Why would he do that if it is a slower form of movement?

I tend to judge the quality of footwork, by the "range" in which they can play with there feet apart. Grigor def passes the sniff test for a 6 foot 3 inch man.

[stotty]

Jk is an interesting player. If you watch him hit, he isn't the most "explosive' player you'd ever see. (for that level) And yet, he is very good mover..Stotty made the comparison to Mecir, and Jk does have that kind of smooth, never rushed, complete control look to him. I can tell you this first hand, he is difficult to wrong foot, get off balance, he's great in and out of corners. He makes it look easy..

But yeah, this video, is not an accurate depiction of the speed that he can play and handle.

JK isn't going to race around, he simply isn't that type of player. The moment I saw JK in the clip I knew he was the languid type. It's a gift. In his own way he's probably as quick as the dynamo type. All that time and composure he has is lovely. A couple of little steps and he's around the ball and positioned.

John Lloyd has two brothers . The younger one, Tony, whose career was cut short through injury, hardly seemed to move. People even said he was slow. All his father would say is, "Yes but it's funny how he's always gets there".

Often it's the innate qualities in players that make them interesting. What JK and Tony have is a bit special. Mecir was amazing because he could make time stand still.

Most balls are steps away and not across an expanse. It's not about sprinting. You need composure on arrival. I can't think of another sport where the movement required is quite the same as tennis.

[10splayer]

JK isn't going to race around, he simply isn't that type of player. The moment I saw JK in the clip I knew he was the languid type. It's a gift. In his own way he's probably as quick as the dynamo type. All that time and composure he has is lovely. A couple of little steps and he's around the ball and positioned.

John Lloyd has two brothers . The younger one, Tony, whose career was cut short through injury, hardly seemed to move. People even said he was slow. All his father would say is, "Yes but it's funny how he's always gets there".

Often it's the innate qualities in players that make them interesting. What JK and Tony have is a bit special. Mecir was amazing because he could make time stand still.

Most balls are steps away and not across an expanse. It's not about sprinting. You need composure on arrival. I can't think of another sport where the movement required is quite the same as tennis.

I share your admiration for Mecir. I wish i couldv'e been more like that. Just not wired that way.You're spot on about JK though. Everything about him is controlled, cool under fire. The way he walks, talks etc. I do believe that's a talent.....