Racket Head Speed

[10splayer]

I am sorry to say, the athlete in this video is LIGHT years behind NBA, NFL and track - fielder athletes. He's a 2 out of 10. Lots to be done.

This is the issue, his coaches probably think tennis is unique, and do not understand other people in other sports face the same dilemma's he is facing with his athlete.

Tennis running is no different than NBA or NFL movement.

10splayer - I can reply to your analysis on running if you like, and maybe it might put things in proper sports perspective for you. Would you mind?

You made no mistake in posting the video. It did the athlete perfect justice. Nothing will change in a video where he is trying harder because the issues he has at slow speed will not magically correct themselves at high speed.

Actually, it is good you did not post it at high speed, as I can already tell you ten to fifteen more problems would have cropped up and reared their head, and I would have likely made ten posts.

And no, I am sorry, everything he is doing does not translate well into more end point racket speed. Quite the opposite. It's translating into slower speed. Its kind of sad. The guy has terrific hands, however, this whole thread was so fan boy, and I saw poor 2/3's that was killing his stroke. Killing it. Sad, because again, this dude has world class hands.

Please, read my post again, I explained how he is canceling out his power.

Is their anything now technically I can touch on here that is getting lost in translation?

Does anyone have any issues with my conclusions, or see anything they'd like to be expanded apon?

And JK, great hands.

However, people should have thought when he was 8 or 9, and seen his propensity for great hands and asked "What's next!" They didn't. They feel in love with the wrong things and did not focus on the other 2/3 that would have made this guy into a world class player in the top echelon. Its such a small difference from going from good to great. Tiny.

Regards
worldsworsttenniscoachwhoknowsshitaboutgripsandwil lhaveahardtimehavingameaningfullongtermrelationshi pwithatenniscoach

It's interesting that you acknowledge he has great hands, and yet you're vehement about how the hands and feet must work together. I can tell you first hand, that Jk has a wonderful, sense of how these two elements work together, even if he is not as explosive as you'd like to see. In fact, it's one of his strengths.

[hockeyscout]

10splayer, any of us that have seen pro players warm up have seen the same kind of lack of intensity, for lack of a better word, that the player you presented showed. I am sure we have all seem Federer warm up, and he is just very nonchalantly hitting the ball. It was clear to me, just watching the guy hitting, that he is a very good player. Not at all surprised that he had a world ranking. And I do not think there will be a type 4 and then type 5 forehand, even though hockey is seeking it. Heck, in women's tennis, there are hardly any type 3's. I think Federer has taken technique about as close to perfect as we are going to see.

There is always a next.

[10splayer]

I am sorry to say, the athlete in this video is LIGHT years behind NBA, NFL and track - fielder athletes. He's a 2 out of 10. Lots to be done.

This is the issue, his coaches probably think tennis is unique, and do not understand other people in other sports face the same dilemma's he is facing with his athlete.

Tennis running is no different than NBA or NFL movement.

I am not sure you understand movement in the way I understand movement, or track coaches understand movement 10splayer.

I can reply to your analysis on running if you like, and maybe it might put things in proper sports perspective for you.


Would you mind?

You made no mistake in posting the video.

It did the athlete perfect justice. Nothing will change in a video where he is trying harder because the issues he has at slow speed will not magically correct themselves at high speed.

Actually, it is good you did not post it at high speed, as I can already tell you ten to fifteen more problems would have cropped up and reared their head, and I would have likely made ten posts.

And no, I am sorry, everything he is doing does not translate well into more end point racket speed. Quite the opposite. It's translating into slower speed. Its kind of sad. The guy has terrific hands, however, likely everyone was all fan boy with him and did not understand how to fix 2/3's of his problems from the collarbone down.

Please, read my post again.

Is their anything now technically I can touch on here that is getting lost in translation?

Does anyone have any issues with my conclusions, or see anything they'd like to be expanded apon?

And JK, great hands.

However, people should have thought when he was 8 or 9, and seen his propensity for great hands and asked "What's next!"

They didn't. They feel in love with the wrong things.

Regards
worldsworsttenniscoachwhoknowsshitaboutgripsandwil lhaveahardtimehavingameaningfullongtermrelationshi pwithatenniscoach

Are you going to answer my question? Why is he is not using gravity steps, crossover movement (forced movement)

Please be specific.

Oh and by the way, I don't think JK is the perfect tennis player. I actually give him more shit then anyone. He's a really good guy..

[10splayer]

Jk is an interesting player. If you watch him hit, he isn't the most "explosive' player you'd ever see. (for that level) And yet, he is very good mover..Stotty made the comparison to Mecir, and Jk does have that kind of smooth, never rushed, complete control look to him. I can tell you this first hand, he is difficult to wrong foot, get off balance, he's great in and out of corners. He makes it look easy..

But yeah, this video, is not an accurate depiction of the speed that he can play and handle.

[hockeyscout]

http://youtu.be/Od_7c6eD1Qk

Gentlemen, are the VAST amount of movement patterns running? I would say no. In fact, I would argue that he is trying his best NOT to run in a manner that forces his center of gravity to fall outside his base support. Specifically, how he always tries to "lead" with the foot closest to the ball whenever possible. For all you load/kinetic chain guys, why would that be? I def made a mistake in posting this video...It doesn't really do JK justice, in that it is casual hitting. I thought that went without saying...It's certainly obvious though he is nonchalant. In fact, that was my point originally, that as casual as he is going about this, it translates well into end point racquet head speed.

I am sorry to say, the athlete in this video is LIGHT years behind NBA, NFL and track - fielder athletes. He's a 2 out of 10. Lots to be done.

[stroke]

10splayer, any of us that have seen pro players warm up have seen the same kind of lack of intensity, for lack of a better word, that the player you presented showed. I am sure we have all seem Federer warm up, and he is just very nonchalantly hitting the ball. It was clear to me, just watching the guy hitting, that he is a very good player. Not at all surprised that he had a world ranking. And I do not think there will be a type 4 and then type 5 forehand, even though hockey is seeking it. Heck, in women's tennis, there are hardly any type 3's. I think Federer has taken technique about as close to perfect as we are going to see.

[hockeyscout]

I've been waiting to hear for a long time what exactly it is that hockeyscout finds missing in so many of the players that he dismisses as poor athletes or at least poor movers if not strikers of the ball. So it's great to see him contribute some specific analysis. It seems to me he is emphasizing that a player has to get in position early enough to load and use his legs and generate power from the bottom up. As for his longing for more "bellybutton" and hip movement, this seems to be similar to the emphasis of Jack Broudy's "8 Board" (see http://8board.com/). I've seen them but never actually employed it as a tool. I know a lot of esteemed teachers and players who swear by it. And I like the concept.

In the subject video that is being dissected here, I think there is a lot of room for better more precise footwork, lower body and trunk loading and, basically, 8-board kind of movement. But without better, higher speed video with more frames per second, it is pretty hard to tell exactly what the subject hitter is doing here. You certainly develop greater power when you drive the engine from the center of the core, but if that mechanism is not that fast at the extremes of its range of motion and the actual timing mechanism of the tennis swing has to be pretty brief to be realistically applicable when the ball starts going faster than the superhighway speed limit. If the ball is sitting there (golf) you can certainly get away with a more complicated and longer swing; not on a groundstroke on a fast deep ball, much less on a return of serve. Certainly, even in those situations, major power should come from that core leg-hip-back-shoulder power engine, but it must be utilised in a way that respects the premium on timing and a lack of much actual time.

don

Thank you Don.

A very nice post.

I tried to keep it as basic as I could and touch on the small things that need attention first.

By the way, do not use the 8board. It's bad. That's not how you want to set up foundation. Its amusing. Do not use it, please. If you'd like I could explain why. Russian's invented that in the 1970's, and their has been a lot of documented studied on how to use it, and its effectiveness, and its not good.

I invested in a vibration platform a year ago, and use a LOT of mats, and bare feet in practice. It's worked, and in time we will get the skill-sets in place I want to see.

As for this guy, I could see his issue 10 seconds into the video. I watched the whole video, however, I knew after a few moments how what I saw in the first ten seconds would tie into everything else.

These issues could be fixed simply by the way.

I don't need to go into slow motion or run him hard, it is very apparent what needs to be fixed.

The foundations that are in place are the foundations that are in place.

The end result will always be the same with what I am seeing in the first ten seconds.

[hockeyscout]

Maybe it is better to judge when he is playing under match conditions?

No.

The issues he has on this video will still be the same issues when he is at a higher speed.

Trust me, they will not go away.

The kid is a great player with superb hands.

However, their are a few things with neurological athletic setups that could be so much better, and really do his justice to his fine raw skills with his hand eye.

[hockeyscout]

When I was in high school, my school won the california state track championship. We had about 1100 students, most from the ghetto. Four black guys on the team who could run 9.6/100yds, and one who could high hurdle. DD Cooper. WE had no track, just a straight a way next to the bart tracks. Barb wire fences. A grass football field without bleachers. No equipment. No coaching. No way to practice baton exchanges. Competing against 30,000 student LA teams. Inner city genetic talent. One whirl pool bath. No tennis courts. A park near by with howler monkeys, had an asphalt path we used as a track. Nichol park in Richmond. Four shot dead over drug territories when I was there. I held the all time mile record, with stan smith tennis shoes.

Tennis does not depend on the fastest, nor the most athletic. Nor the most talented. You fight with your head first, and then your sword. Ask Brad Gilbert about that, reaching #4 without a serve. With old school continental grips. Pushing and hitting without spin.

Now it's impossible to do that, win with mostly your mind. All else has to be in place. Viciousness. Talent. Starvation diets. All out training. All out coaching. All out equipment. And then, there are 1000s of others crushing the ball all over the world who are harder, smarter, than you are.

Agreed. Nice post Geoff.

[10splayer]

http://youtu.be/Od_7c6eD1Qk

Gentlemen, are the VAST amount of movement patterns running? I would say no. In fact, I would argue that he is trying his best NOT to run in a manner that forces his center of gravity to fall outside his base support. Specifically, how he always tries to "lead" with the foot closest to the ball whenever possible. For all you load/kinetic chain guys, why would that be?

I def made a mistake in posting this video...It doesn't really do JK justice, in that it is casual hitting. I thought that went without saying...It's certainly obvious though he is nonchalant. In fact, that was my point originally, that as casual as he is going about this, it translates well into end point racquet head speed.

[tennis_chiro]

I've been waiting to hear for a long time what exactly it is that hockeyscout finds missing in so many of the players that he dismisses as poor athletes or at least poor movers if not strikers of the ball. So it's great to see him contribute some specific analysis. It seems to me he is emphasizing that a player has to get in position early enough to load and use his legs and generate power from the bottom up. As for his longing for more "bellybutton" and hip movement, this seems to be similar to the emphasis of Jack Broudy's "8 Board" (see http://8board.com/). I've seen them but never actually employed it as a tool. I know a lot of esteemed teachers and players who swear by it. And I like the concept.

In the subject video that is being dissected here, I think there is a lot of room for better more precise footwork, lower body and trunk loading and, basically, 8-board kind of movement. But without better, higher speed video with more frames per second, it is pretty hard to tell exactly what the subject hitter is doing here. You certainly develop greater power when you drive the engine from the center of the core, but if that mechanism is not that fast at the extremes of its range of motion and the actual timing mechanism of the tennis swing has to be pretty brief to be realistically applicable when the ball starts going faster than the superhighway speed limit. If the ball is sitting there (golf) you can certainly get away with a more complicated and longer swing; not on a groundstroke on a fast deep ball, much less on a return of serve. Certainly, even in those situations, major power should come from that core leg-hip-back-shoulder power engine, but it must be utilised in a way that respects the premium on timing and a lack of much actual time.

don

[gzhpcu]

I totally disagree on his movement. It is so bad. Maybe its good for you in tennis, however, for us in other sports it is VERY below average with A LOT of room for growth. Yes, the hands are good, it's just sad no one had a basic understanding of athletic setups to get him off to a better start.

Maybe it is better to judge when he is playing under match conditions?

[GeoffWilliams]

When I was in high school, my school won the california state track championship. We had about 1100 students, most from the ghetto. Four black guys on the team who could run 9.6/100yds, and one who could high hurdle. DD Cooper. WE had no track, just a straight a way next to the bart tracks. Barb wire fences. A grass football field without bleachers. No equipment. No coaching. No way to practice baton exchanges. Competing against 30,000 student LA teams. Inner city genetic talent. One whirl pool bath. No tennis courts. A park near by with howler monkeys, had an asphalt path we used as a track. Nichol park in Richmond. Four shot dead over drug territories when I was there. I held the all time mile record, with stan smith tennis shoes.

Tennis does not depend on the fastest, nor the most athletic. Nor the most talented. You fight with your head first, and then your sword. Ask Brad Gilbert about that, reaching #4 without a serve. With old school continental grips. Pushing and hitting without spin.

Now it's impossible to do that, win with mostly your mind. All else has to be in place. Viciousness. Talent. Starvation diets. All out training. All out coaching. All out equipment. And then, there are 1000s of others crushing the ball all over the world who are harder, smarter, than you are.

[hockeyscout]

Really? Who? Which coaches? What sport? What were their backgrounds and certifications? Care to elaborate because it sounds strange to me. I deal in real specifics of course, and I am curious what these coaches thought about you as well, and your grasp of important athletic concepts.

Let me ask you a question - how big an industry is tennis? How much money has been sunk into understanding biomechanics? None. Time, money and finances - the other sports have it sorted out. Billions spent in research. Decades ahead of tennis. Serious.

Brian Gordon is interesting, however, has it been backed up by independent study and third party analysis? Probably not because its the only thing of it's kind, and proprietary in nature of course, and not open to public scrutiny like other sports which has all opened up their can of worms, and shared in a real open source environment. I know ZERO about his perimeters unfortunately, and he'd never discuss them with a guy like me anyways.

I am so nervous about what I see, hear and read about tennis technique. I want to elaborate. It seems to me only one guy is doing it, and its John Yandell, and it's sad John hasn't got a backer to give him tens of millions of dollars to truly expand his research, and really reach the conclusions his peers have in other sports. Guys like John, and Vic Braden needed millions in cash infusion, and teams of assistants and experts. Instead, other sports got it.

Anyone else doing what John is doing, or is at his level? Don't think so, as their is no funding. Next, can you locate me any scientific papers of merit relating to tennis? It's tough isn't it. Again, zero funding.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ = problem. NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, Billions. Tennis cannot compete, and their is so much competition for good running, movement coaches, that guys in that training industry are competing for BIG TIME money.

With all due respect to Boris Becker, Ivan Lendl, and all the other great coaches, come on, do you think tennis coaches have the resources to compete with other guys in other fields who are basically getting cart blanche and unlimited budgets, people power and analytics?

[10splayer]

I don't see how "running" is applicable IF the defintion of running is where the center of gravity falls outside the base of support.

Footwork patterns that keep the center of gravity within the base of support are much preferred in this game... for a multitude of reasons. If you're "running" you're losing in tennis.

And I've had many coaches in other sports, who know nothing about how to build games..Geez