Racket Head Speed

[stotty]

http://youtu.be/vvhrtiS0lwU

Take a look at this beginning at 1:53 (some good exchanges) and focus on Fed..How does he flow out of the split step? Seems to me, he's trying to (as often as possible) jab/lead with the foot closest to the ball which keeps his center of gravity inside the base of support. A sprinter would never do this, so why would a tennis player if it's a slower, more labor intensive initiation process?

I find it amazing how much court he can cover WITHOUT having to use a process that moves the center of gravity outside the base.

Any thoughts?

I take your point. The jab gets him directed/on the way really quick. I think also the innate is at work here. The way Federer flows and floats is a gift. Nastase was also equally gifted in the same way. I doubt Federer is as quick as Nadal or Nastase was as quick as Borg, but respectively they move better...if that makes sense...and certainly more beautifully.

I think Nadal is the closest (only at times) we have in tennis to a sprinter. He has a background in soccer and that definitely shows when he moves forward for a drop shot or a longish distance. He puts his head down and goes.

That said, I think Federer moves forward better than Nadal. He is more composed and better on arrival. He NEVER sprints even over an expanse.

I love the way Federer darts out of his split step so quickly. I think it's part of the secret. That first half a yard is everything in those rallies from 1.53 you mention. Much of the time it's just a couple of steps he is moving.

[bottle]

I like to try to stay in discussion at my own level of play-- stance probably not too wide compounded by being tall. But sure, the more imbalance you can guickly generate the faster your start. But-- another But-- most of the time you (I, it) want control more than explosiveness, so where on the court was I before all the questions came up? And other Buts: "explosiveness" suggests (to me at least) a big push with outside foot. But if I am listening to Alexander's Ragtime Band properly, the push is from snout to toe or from toe to snout or from hips working out in both directions with all of this creating "fall upward" so that gravity, not all the muscle work is what really makes one go fast through doing less. It's all certainly fun theory. BUT-- one has to put it into practice or it means nothing.

[10splayer]

I can be convinced, but if so, probably by a single slo-mo vidEO.

I just think that on a lot of shots Roger's stance, though wide, is not as wide as many other tour players.

And that width of stance is one of the determinants in whether outside foot retracts in a gravity step Michael Jackson style.

I just don't see how anybody can go anywhere without changing their center of gravity.

Whether the COG then goes outside somebody's foot-- hey, why should anyone care?

It was a bit of an open ended question..my bad. Would you agree that a gravity step is more explosive because of the lean of the torso in the direction of movement? And if so, what negative impacts would that have for a tennis player? (esp in the 2 and 3 step movement ) patterns. After all, if the entire goal in tennis was to get from point A to B in the quickest possible way,(like a sprinter) this would be the way to go. Wouldn't you think?

If you look at FED, he's choosing to step out (when he can) which keeps his center of mass between his feet and not create excessive torso tilt. Why would he do that if it's a slower more labor intensive way to move?

[bottle]

I can be convinced, but if so, probably by a single slo-mo vidEO.

I just think that on a lot of shots Roger's stance, though wide, is not as wide as many other tour players.

And that width of stance is one of the determinants in whether outside foot retracts in a gravity step Michael Jackson style.

I just don't see how anybody can go anywhere without changing their center of gravity.

Whether the COG then goes outside somebody's foot-- hey, why should anyone care?

[10splayer]

http://youtu.be/vvhrtiS0lwU

Take a look at this beginning at 1:53 (some good exchanges) and focus on Fed..How does he flow out of the split step? Seems to me, he's trying to (as often as possible) jab/lead with the foot closest to the ball which keeps his center of gravity inside the base of support. A sprinter would never do this, so why would a tennis player if it's a slower, more labor intensive initiation process?


I find it amazing how much court he can cover WITHOUT having to use a process that moves the center of gravity outside the base.



Any thoughts?

[10splayer]

Thanks DB

[don_budge]

Mark Kovacs, PhD on tennisplayer.net

I tend to agree with this..Do you have a source, as I'd like to see if it squares with my thinking?

Mark Kovacs on "Cone Drills" and "Dynamic Warm Up and Strengthening":

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/physicaltraining/mark_kovacs/oncourt_training_for_tennis/part_01_cone_drills/

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/physicaltraining/mark_kovacs/oncourt_training_for_tennis/dynamic_warmup/

[bobbyswift]

Sorry not sure of the question 10s player or if it was to me.

[10splayer]

Mark Kovaks of the Usta also feels that tennis is not a running sport. He is a good resource for tennis athletic training in the USA.

I tend to agree with this..Do you have a source, as I'd like to see if it squares with my thinking?

[hockeyscout]

The person who works with me is a big fan of Grey Cook and Mike Boyle. The chiropractor we use is former Mr Olympia Franco Columbo. You seem to have many ideas but for me it is easier when video accompanies written word. That is why I am a big fan of this site. Also get advice from Jon Jon Park over the years who has trained Oscar de la Hoya. His dad was a body building legend.

You guys sound like you have a neat program.

[bobbyswift]

The person who works with me is a big fan of Grey Cook and Mike Boyle. The chiropractor we use is former Mr Olympia Franco Columbo. You seem to have many ideas but for me it is easier when video accompanies written word. That is why I am a big fan of this site. Also get advice from Jon Jon Park over the years who has trained Oscar de la Hoya. His dad was a body building legend.

[hockeyscout]

The functional movement screen is from Grey Cook. I have sent may clients to him and the trainer who works with me is certified from him. He has a book that covers a lot of the movement screen. Athletic Body in Balance. We have tested our athletes with this system for years. HS has been posting about movement however I have sent my clients 2 top 120 ranked ATP pros to an Olympic track coach Chuck Debus who felt his work had basically no effect for tennis players. After 6 months no improvement that was apparent. Chuck has trained more gold medalists than just about any USA track coach.

Bobby, what other avenues are you using?

[hockeyscout]

The functional movement screen is from Grey Cook. I have sent may clients to him and the trainer who works with me is certified from him. He has a book that covers a lot of the movement screen. Athletic Body in Balance. We have tested our athletes with this system for years. HS has been posting about movement however I have sent my clients 2 top 120 ranked ATP pros to an Olympic track coach Chuck Debus who felt his work had basically no effect for tennis players. After 6 months no improvement that was apparent. Chuck has trained more gold medalists than just about any USA track coach.

Interesting.

[hockeyscout]

The functional movement screen is from Grey Cook. I have sent may clients to him and the trainer who works with me is certified from him. He has a book that covers a lot of the movement screen. Athletic Body in Balance. We have tested our athletes with this system for years. HS has been posting about movement however I have sent my clients 2 top 120 ranked ATP pros to an Olympic track coach Chuck Debus who felt his work had basically no effect for tennis players. After 6 months no improvement that was apparent. Chuck has trained more gold medalists than just about any USA track coach.

I can believe their would be no improvement. That makes perfect sense. It would be to tough to neurologically undo a pro tennis players bad habits. You need to start athletes at a young age. Eight, nine or ten. After that, forget it.

[hockeyscout]

HS,

I appreciate there is an awful lot I do not know. I wish I could afford to do the FMS seminar in San Diego this weekend, but I can't. It looks like interesting stuff. I wonder if there are any books you could recommend that would offer a better understanding of the principles of FMS and the underlying philosophy. Better yet, with all the certifications you've obtained in movement science, it would be great if you gave us your top five books to look at to get some sense of what it is all about.

But I also wonder what you think of some of the players of the past and what kind of movement skills they had. I'm not sure Nastase had movement skills as good as Djokovic or Murray, but strictly subjectively, he was the best mover I ever saw on a tennis court and seemingly completely natural. Along those lines, where would you rank Rosewall or Laver? Borg or even Connors who tennis classicists consider to have had great footwork? Have you seen tapes of Gonzales moving. I know there is limited footage of him available in his early years, but there is some and quite a bit more from the late 60's and early 70's. You mentioned moving like a cat; I don't think anyone's movement has ever been compared more to a cat's than Gonzales'; whether or not the analogy is really fair is another question. If this FMS doesn't rate the movement of Gonzales and Nastase as superior, I would have to seriously question the principles on which it is based.

Tennis is very different in that you must separate upper and lower body (legs going as fast as they can even as the upper body/hands stay as calm as possible and measure the incoming ball) and then harness the power of the lower body to generate real power.

don

Man, its flipping complicated, FMS. Neat stuff.

As for runners, I love Connors. That guy was durable as hell. That's what I want. DURABILITY! His footwork, transitions, pivots, change of direction and elliptical running patterns were as good as they get, especially off the backhand wing.