Racket Head Speed

[DougEng]

Gabby

10splayer this is magic for us.

I want to learn what you do, so we can counter it in a match.

We've obviously got different systems, beliefs, roadmaps and technical beliefs.

If I can learn what you do, and understand it, I can shape a program to play against it effectively.

Counterstrike.

Hey 10splayer, what do you think of Gabby Price?

You've probably seen the best kids in the country. What do you think? Video is from 2012 when she was nine and Macci was comparing her to Capriati.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i-eH1qbXRA

For us, it's interesting how she plays.

Too young to make a real call.

I recently saw her play in person. Her game is nice…hard to say if she will be a Hall-of-Famer. Kids at 9-12 are different from adults (touring pros) at 17-34. The real strength is her passion/drive and return of serve. (Today) her return is ridiculous, as good as a strong Division 1 (female) player. She needs some work on the rest of her game but she appears to be a strong fighter. Her power and ability to take the ball early is somewhere between Capriati and Seles. Not unlike Bouchard who is the closest to that today.

To stay on track, she is currently #1-2 in tennisrecruiting.net ratings but she should be a top 10 ITF junior at 15-16 years old…break into the top 100 at 18-20. But anything can happen along the way…for every great #1 player, there's 5-6 players just as good who didn't make it. Injuries, physical growth (changes in athleticism), change of motivation all are factors.

[DougEng]

Racquet Head Speed

I tend to agree with much of what this guy says....For the reasons he states..However, (with lessons) I try to establish a few other things, before I give them a license to "press the envelope" in terms of maxing out RHS.

One is what I call "shaping" swings. That is, learning to change the path and the amount of hand and arm rotation to add, or subtract, topspin. There's basically an inverse relationship between spin and velocity, and without a working knowledge as to how to manipulate these two elements, I'm not sure max RHS is a great idea..With the power of modern day racquets, if a player does not know how to direct the RHS to spin sufficiently...they actually become much more inconsistent.

I also spend alot of time teaching people "when" to accelerate or release the racquet ( lag) to achieve RHS. What I've seen over the years (with students) when asked for more RHS, is a process that starts too early (often times in the backswing) and too labor intensive. (in a muscular sense) The reason great players look so relaxed is because they are NOT trying to accelerate the racquet (much) until very close to contact. I think if you look at RHS profiles, the bulk of acceleration will occur very late in the swing. By doing so a player can be relaxed, rhythmic, and can "line" up the ball much better, thus improving the contact quality.

http://tennis.about.com/od/forehandbackhand/ss/federerforehand_3.htm

In the above picture, the racquet head will only now really begin to pick up speed. Just my 02 cents.

Also, yes, quite true. Most racquet head speed is in the slot (racket butt to ball and closed) to contact. Not after loading. Loading represents the initiation of ground forces, not the bulk of acceleration.

Most people don't realize it is a countermovement or "stretch-reflex". Most people move the racquet hand forward too early but the modern forehand is very much like throwing a ball. Ironically, most pros say serving is like throwing but the forehand is now in the same category. At high speed, it's easy to see the elbow almost leading as acceleration phase picks up. It's not a continuous C motion where you are looking to steadily gain racquet head speed.

Anyhow I teach players to get an idea of their swing speed that produces the most consistent ball trajectories. For some, it's hitting fairly hard and others less so. In general, it's a 6 to an 8 out of 10 (maximal racquet head speed) for most players in rallies. Physiologically to expect some players to hit high racquet head speed with heavy spin isn't possible. Many players have weaknesses in core, hips, etc that don't maximize racquet head speed correlated with spin. Thats why we see many flat hitters, etc and why S&C training is important in the modern game: to prevent injuries and allow increased power (vertically and horizontally…or angularly).

There's way too many tactical variations to try to be consistent with one racquet head speed. And it would be a tactical risk to try to produce one speed.
However, dramatically changing racquet head speed is worst in terms of consistency. But it's a double edged sword since changing speed and spin is disruptive for the opponent. Just ask any good player, throwing a few slices or bigger forehands or loops can force opponents to get out of rhythm and make errors.

I wouldn't agree with the whole premise of one maximal racquet head speed as tactically even if it looks more consistent, it might actually lose. It's like Andy Roddick just throwing 135 mph serves at Federer and Roger wins. The best players in the world have among the most variety. Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Serena, etc all have the ability to vary speed, spin and move. The more singular racquet head swingers like Sharapova, Berdych or Almagro tend to be one-dimensional and limited.

Really the non-mental keys are:
1. great movement (Djokovic))
2. great fitness (ability to suffer, ala Nadal)
3. ability to play all shots well (Federer)
4. 3 shots/ways to win offensively

It used to be 2 weapons: serve and forehand
I think it's a bit more than that now…it's not just weapons, but
how you win with them.

[hockeyscout]

The manifestos being preached here on footwork, are, well, interesting.

I wish you guys all the best in your developmental programs, I really do.

I'd love to come to Sweden and play a few matches against don_budge's students. It'd be interesting to see how well we'd compete against his awesome paradigm of 1940's Bill Tilden tennis, and tennis is a unique sport mantra.

It would be great, you're "heightened sense of perception, cats, flash comics, Bill Tilden and awareness" versus what we do. I wonder how a match would play out.

[don_budge]

The Doors of Perception…Aldous Huxley

I think perception has a key role.

Ok Stotty. You have hit the nail on the head. So how do we teach the student to "perceive"…to be more aware? How do we teach them to "create time"?

Tennis is a game of engagement…of constantly being in a state of concentration. Engagement with one's own body. Engagement with the ball. Engagement with your opponent. It's all in the MIND. Is it any wonder that it is such a mental game?

The movement is choreographed with this engagement…this heightened sense of perception and awareness. Imagine the ball leaving a trail of energy behind it during the course of a point and see the player leaving a trail of himself as well as well…in motion. As in the old "Flash" comic books. Now you can imagine why tennis is such a unique game. God's gift to mankind in terms of recreation.

Why did we let man foul it up with technology?

[stotty]

Ironically this is what JK does so well.

I think movement is a wide and interesting topic. I am not sure how much of it can be taught without having many hours to spend with a student.

I think perception has a key role. I am imagine JK to have a high level of perception. By that I mean he sees what's coming a tad earlier than others. Players like this can seem slow yet are always there. Mecir always seemed to have an ocean of time in situations where others would be under great duress.

Like you, I feel Federer's ability to maintain his posture is like no one else's. I love the way he manages to get his backhand inside the wheelhouse so often because of it.

[10splayer]

1 heel to heel
2 outside foot extends and plants 90 degrees to the right*
3 crossover with the left
4 plant the right foot close enough to the ball in order to...
5 step towards the ball and the net

*2 inside foot extends and plants 90 degrees to the right

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvhrtiS0lwU&feature=youtu.be

I meant inside foot…although in 10splayer's video you see that Roger either crosses over with his outside or he slides towards the ball with his inside.  So that is in itself interesting.

Watching that video in real time is enlightening as well. The hopping…the skipping…the scrambling. Of course there is order in the madness…but the rules? Is there anything hard and fast?

Maybe as 10splayer says…



Wait a minute…that sounds sort of "catlike".

There have been some interesting twists and turns in this thread. The darn things never seem to stay on track. I guess it's better that way. But then you are left to your own devices…to connect the dots. It's nothing that needs to be certified. At least in my book…in my paradigm. You know what that is…it starts with Bill Tilden is the book. Which is not the same as saying the "moral compass".

Yes, that's basically my position. If you pick up, or lead with the foot closest to the ball, the COM stays inside the base, and shifts away from the direction of movement. (which is slower) However, it's a good tradeoff (when he feels he can pull it off) because it will eliminate the torso tilt that occurs, with a gravity step. You're absolutely right, though, he may follow that with a crossover, which gets him running. However, because he didn't lean initially, even after the crossover, he's beautifully balanced with his shoulders up over his hips. A Fed trademark.

It's typically not a good idea to tilt or lean forward (too much unless necessary) because it has to be reconciled by the time the last step out (loading) is performed. If not, it makes it all but impossible to change the direction of momentum from sideways and linear, to rotational/angular. Roger is the best I've ever seen at this. Indeed, when I first saw him play at the OPen 10 yrs ago, or so, I couldn't believe how perfect (even under pressure) his posture was when he turned on the ball.


I try and get my players in a position (on the last step out) where there shoulders are up over the hips and behind the load leg. This is critical. (IMO) Too often, the weight travels beyond the plant foot (towards the side fence often as a result of tilting or trying to find balance) which makes it impossible to "redirect momentum" efficiently, maintain a vertical axis of rotation, and an ability to "kick" the right leg out in recovery.

Too often is see players (when running is the thought process) tilting leaning, and losing their balance over (toward the side fence) the load leg...

Ironically this is what JK does so well.

[don_budge]

Correction…step #2 (either/or)

2 outside foot extends and plants 90 degrees to the right

1 heel to heel
2 outside foot extends and plants 90 degrees to the right*
3 crossover with the left
4 plant the right foot close enough to the ball in order to...
5 step towards the ball and the net

*2 inside foot extends and plants 90 degrees to the right

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvhrtiS0lwU&feature=youtu.be

I meant inside foot…although in 10splayer's video you see that Roger either crosses over with his outside or he slides towards the ball with his inside. So that is in itself interesting.

Watching that video in real time is enlightening as well. The hopping…the skipping…the scrambling. Of course there is order in the madness…but the rules? Is there anything hard and fast?

Maybe as 10splayer says…

...which keeps his center of mass between his feet and not create excessive torso tilt.

Wait a minute…that sounds sort of "catlike".

There have been some interesting twists and turns in this thread. The darn things never seem to stay on track. I guess it's better that way. But then you are left to your own devices…to connect the dots. It's nothing that needs to be certified. At least in my book…in my paradigm. You know what that is…it starts with Bill Tilden is the book. Which is not the same as saying the "moral compass".

[10splayer]

I remember at one point in my resurgence back to tennis that I was really interested in watching only Roger Federer. Not too much has actually changed. I would watch only Roger and not watch the ball or his opponent for that matter. Interestingly enough…I was watching some tennis and Rod Laver suggested viewing the tennis in the exact same manner.

Watching Roger in this video I find it validating to see that so many times his movement is initiated by a move that moves his feet together in a sort of skipping motion. Heel to heel. From there he makes the move to the ball with either his outside foot or his inside foot…whichever foot he feels instantaneously will get him to arrive to the ball in the manner that is necessary for him to hit the type of shot that he needs to hit.

From this little discussion it becomes apparent to me that there are no hard and fast "rules" of movement and that the whole process is more or less improvised by the player. It is sort of a Tango…and as Al Pacino said in the movie "The Scent of a Woman"…when dancing the Tango if you get tangled up…you just Tango on.

I teach my beginners footwork moving from the centre of the court to the sideline in a five step dance step.

1 heel to heel
2 outside foot extends and plants 90 degrees to the right
3 crossover with the left
4 plant the right foot close enough to the ball in order to...
5 step towards the ball and the net

I remember watching Scent of Woman for the first time, and wondering if I'd ever see a movie I like better.

[don_budge]

Dancing with the Tennis Ball…ala Roger Federer

http://youtu.be/vvhrtiS0lwU
Any thoughts?

I remember at one point in my resurgence back to tennis that I was really interested in watching only Roger Federer. Not too much has actually changed. I would watch only Roger and not watch the ball or his opponent for that matter. Interestingly enough…I was watching some tennis and Rod Laver suggested viewing the tennis in the exact same manner.

Watching Roger in this video I find it validating to see that so many times his movement is initiated by a move that moves his feet together in a sort of skipping motion. Heel to heel. From there he makes the move to the ball with either his outside foot or his inside foot…whichever foot he feels instantaneously will get him to arrive to the ball in the manner that is necessary for him to hit the type of shot that he needs to hit.

From this little discussion it becomes apparent to me that there are no hard and fast "rules" of movement and that the whole process is more or less improvised by the player. It is sort of a Tango…and as Al Pacino said in the movie "The Scent of a Woman"…when dancing the Tango if you get tangled up…you just Tango on.

I teach my beginners footwork moving from the centre of the court to the sideline in a five step dance step.

1 heel to heel
2 outside foot extends and plants 90 degrees to the right
3 crossover with the left
4 plant the right foot close enough to the ball in order to...
5 step towards the ball and the net

[10splayer]

Poetry in motion…unique movement. In ALL of sports. Not bad racquet head speed either.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/music_videos/federer_fh_not_gone/index.html

It's a game of energy and balance. Movement management.

In the video I posted, it's obvious that Fed is not always using initiation and movement patterns that "red line" his speed capabilities. Because Roger knows, that there can be a trade off between top end speed and the ability to perform and intricate set of skills at the end of these bursts..Great movers have an ability to strike that balance given the situation.

"Movement management"..Perfect.

[don_budge]

Footwork (tennis movement)…ala Roger Federer (slo-mo)

Poetry in motion…unique movement. In ALL of sports. Not bad racquet head speed either.

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/music_videos/federer_fh_not_gone/index.html

It's a game of energy and balance. Movement management.

[stotty]

Right on bro....there's also the loading and redirecting momentum aspect which has a profound impact on racquet head speed.

Yes I hadn't considered that. It's been an interesting exchange. Many thanks. Bedtime here in the UK...just coming up for midnight.

[10splayer]

Right on bro....there's also the loading and redirecting momentum aspect which has a profound impact on racquet head speed.

[stotty]

Stotty,
He is the king of jab, (he has incredible range) but a gravity step would be quicker because the center of mass falls outside the base of support. He will only resort to that if he has to really get on his horse...It is my position that (and I've been called horrible, ugly names for it) hehe, is that tennis is not as much a running sport as many think. If you watch Fed here, he is using the jab step (even though is slower) as much as possible to initiate directional change....and avoid excessive torso tilt...Even in the most fundamental sense, this is the antithesis of what a sprinter does..

A torso tilt is the last thing a tennis player wants. It would give him TOO much velocity. It would work against him on the next shot. The ability to brake, recover and redirect would suffer. A sprint is the last resort. Federer keeps his mostly straight back during all those rallies.

Amazing how he covers all that court in just a couple of strides...

[10splayer]

I take your point. The jab gets him directed/on the way really quick. I think also the innate is at work here. The way Federer flows and floats is a gift. Nastase was also equally gifted in the same way. I doubt Federer is as quick as Nadal or Nastase was as quick as Borg, but respectively they move better...if that makes sense...and certainly more beautifully.

I think Nadal is the closest (only at times) we have in tennis to a sprinter. He has a background in soccer and that definitely shows when he moves forward for a drop shot or a longish distance. He puts his head down and goes.

That said, I think Federer moves forward better than Nadal. He is more composed and better on arrival. He NEVER sprints even over an expanse.

I love the way Federer darts out of his split step so quickly. I think it's part of the secret. That first half a yard is everything in those rallies from 1.53 you mention. Much of the time it's just a couple of steps he is moving.

Stotty,
He is the king of jab, (he has incredible range) but a gravity step would be quicker because the center of mass falls outside the base of support. He will only resort to that if he has to really get on his horse...It is my position that (and I've been called horrible, ugly names for it) hehe, is that tennis is not as much a running sport as many think. If you watch Fed here, he is using the jab step (even though is slower) as much as possible to initiate directional change....and avoid excessive torso tilt...Even in the most fundamental sense, this is the antithesis of what a sprinter does..