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Would love to hear thoughts on "Your Strokes: Francis Tiafoe: Serve"
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Good article John! There are some core fundamentals missing in the Tiafoe serve which has raised eyebrows in some circles for quite some time. As you pointed out, the lack of shoulder turn/coiling etc seem to go against the grain of traditionally great servers. The question becomes are these "differences" great enough to hold him back from becoming a world class server? Or does the uniqueness of his motion cause enough confusion for the returner to offset the technical deficiencies? Similar pluses and minuses could be considered when looking at the Gulbis forehand as well.
Great to see you at the Open this year!
Jason Frausto -
timing b/w toss and raising racquet arm?
I am only speaking from how I presently serve (pinpoint stance-sorry John; maybe I should submit a video of my own!) and aside from the bending of the tossing arm, the most salient thing I noticed was the drastic timing discrepancy between tossing the ball and raising racquet arm (he tosses ball 1st and then raises racquet arm).
I bring this up because I found that this element of the serve relates to the timing of the degree of knee bend established via pinpoint stance. I consciously and have always tossed the ball concurrently with the raising of my racquet arm (with my elbow already relatively in a high position). Just by doing that, it seems to give me the natural tendency to slide my back foot at the moment the ball is released from my hand and as John you have instructed with Federer's serving model, reach trophy position with tossing arm pointing straight up. For some reason, having the arm pointing straight up provides me with a critical albeit momentary balance when in the trophy pose. Over time, I have realized that the combination of this balanced pose along with the preliminary timing of my back foot coming forwards (when ball is released from tossing arm) have naturally led to a deeper knee bend, which provides me with upwards spring I need to generate a circular racquet path. This knee bend I have noticed has been paramount for 2nd serves (which I am still working on in terms of placement, pace and consistency), where I almost find myself tossing the ball higher (and of course a bit more left, over my head) so that I am in my pinpoint stance seemingly earlier and subsequently providing me with slightly more time to bend knees and spring upwards to generate the extra topspin.
A good pro player model that I have only recently found rather similar and effective is (today's) Kei Nishikori. I believe he has been developing his serves for some time (and if I recall correctly, was shifting back and forth between pinpiont and the platform stance) only in the past year or so, have developed his serve into a weapon. You can distinctly hear the squeaking sound that the back foot makes when sliding forwards into the pinpoint stance.Last edited by dosumthing; 09-04-2014, 08:32 AM. Reason: forgot to mention a good pro player exampleComment
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It just shows pure raw talent will take a player quite a way all by itself.Originally posted by jasonfrausto View Post
I have to say, though, as a coach who works in development, in the UK we would try to stop the bad elements in Tiafoe's serve developing in the first place. Some performance coaches can get pretty cross if we hand players up to them with basic flaws, as they have to undo problem. Having a correct tossing method, for example, would be considered a basic.
It's alarming what errors can slip through the coaching process over there...Ryan Sweeting's severely dropped elbow also springs to mind. It's almost like a player must develop in spite of the system rather than because of it. It's strange because one imagines standards to be very high in the US, considering your illustrious tennis history.Last edited by stotty; 09-04-2014, 01:48 PM.StottyComment
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A complete overhaul will not fix that. HIs only chance is to study video of himself, and have a side by side view of his attempts to transform some of the worst form I've seen on a serve.Comment
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Stotty,Originally posted by licensedcoach View Post
It's quite remarkable really, he just lost in the semis of the US Open juniors with a pretty flawed service motion. I'll say this, despite our past success, coaching education standards here are considerably lower than they are in Europe, it could certainly be one of various reasons for our struggles to produce players on the men's side.
JasonComment
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Jason,
Great to see you at the Open as well! And if you guys aren't aware Jason did an amazing job tagging and identifying all the stances in two open finals and producing the data Dave Ramos and I used in our talk on the pro backhand stances at the Open Tennis Teachers Conference.
So thank you!
RE: Francis. It's easy to criticize from the sidelines. I know that the coaches he works with are aware of these issues. He's still only 16 or maybe 17 now and you have the feeling his game is still fluid and in the process of formation. I am betting he makes a big serve technique jump at some point relatively soon. And the forehand could go up as well...more on that later maybe. The scary thing is his great results already...Comment
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This serve has flaws, that's obvious. What is also obvious but often forgotten is that he is 16 years old. 16! His game is far from complete and its also far from fully developed. Ivanisevic improved Cilic's serve in his late 20's. Seemed to work out well. I have no doubts Francis' coaches will use John's info and creat e a better motion. Tennis is a long term development sport right? 16 is not where the progress stops. Not even close.
Sorry I missed seeing Jason in NYC.
Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca RatonComment
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Nishikori is proving you don't need a big serve to hold serve. As bad as this serve is, he's not holding with it. Who taught him anyway? Most of these young guys just give you the dead eye look when you tell them: "Hitting down the middle for 1.5hrs straight is not going to help you hold serve."Comment
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He serves well, but does not achieve the "archer's bow position", which would help to initiate the cartwheeling action on the serve. Would attempting the archer's bow help?Comment
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Phil,
Probably so.Comment
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The way the analysis is written is observant and precise. He should read and react to this article. I think he was trying to emulate Ivo K. with that wristy lag. His nick name is now Wristy.Comment
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Francis Tiafoe Serve
John,
Even though his shoulder turn isn't as far as most pro's neither is his hip turn. However, what is his ratio of shoulder turn to his hip turn? Is it comparable to other ATP pro's? He appears to create a good amount of dynamic tension from a very open position.
The minimal knee bend and lack of shoulder tilt make this a very arm dependent motion putting a lot of the stress on the shoulder.
It is amazing what gifted athletes can make effective and repeatable but even more amazing to think what it could be if he made the necessary changes.
Speaking of changes. What about Cilic serve change. The lower toss and quicker motion created the Ivanisevic/Tanner effect. I haven't seen so many aces hit in a long time where the returner didn't even react because the ball was on and by them so fast.Comment
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I think the hip shoulder thing is important but happens naturally when you turn your shoulders. You can really force the creation of the difference. And yeah talent trumps technique to some degree at some levels.
Love Cilic's new motion. To me the big difference is the tossing position more to his right. He had a super left position before and hit kickers that lacked speed on his first serve.Comment
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Ivo has: taught Cilic to relax by creating more time with a burst first step off higher split.
Lowered his service toss, sped up his motion, changed the toss to 12 oclock.
Showed him how to attack the net inside out with a fh approach and a cc drop volley or angle off.
Taught him not to think so much.
Project confidence and a greater attack off faster head speed groundies.
Coach of the year.Comment
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