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He needs to lay his finger all the way back, on snap back, and ask him just to feel the finger bending backwards, as he snaps forwards, to get the vicious whip lash. Doesn't matter if he goes all the way back, as many top atp guys do that as well.
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I'd love to hear them...fire away.Originally posted by don_budge View PostI have a couple of ideas...care to hear them?
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Keep the chest on the ball...the best golf advice I ever received.
Originally posted by licensedcoach View PostI'd love to hear them...fire away.Great. One of the things that I read into your thread here is that you have a really good relationship with your student. He trusts you. A huge important factor in the process. He is willing to look into the instructions that you give him...and knowing you...you give them in the vein of "food for thought". You don't impress me as the dictator type. So here is some food for thought for you...and your student.Originally posted by licensedcoach View Post
In the experimental process that you have worked on the day of your latest video work (great camera work btw...good angles etc.)...it appears that you have hit upon something. I could never figure out what worldsbesttenniscoach was talking about when he referred to the "backward emphasis forehand" but I think I hit upon it when I was watching your student. He always seemed to be falling away from the path of the ball after every single shot. To me this is a huge no-no...I like to see the student balanced somehow forwards after completing the stroke, even if only for an instant or even for an imaginary instant before recovering for the ready position for the next shot. See the music video below for what I am referring to in balance at impact.
In your work yesterday I see the beginnings of the "forwards emphasis" type of finish that I like to see and what I believe is the best finish to play a shot aggressively...that is with the appropriate elements of speed, spin and control. I believe that this type of finish is going to give you the stability that you mentioned in your first post.
I think that you have to think about the forehand stroke tactically as well as technically too. Of course the ATP forehand is only an ATP forehand because someone decided to give it a name...but the elements must still have fundamentally sound principles if it is going to work for any given student. It is best to let the student evolve into this sort of technique over time instead of forcing it onto them. So tactically speaking I would like to see this young man start to think of his forehand to press the issue tactically speaking and to press the issue with placement and less spin by going more forwards with the stroke just as he shows he is willing to do in the latest video.
So how do you encourage him to build on your latest findings? I don't believe that the answer is with any snapping of quick and sudden moves of the wrist...in fact...quite the opposite I would like to see him minimize this sort of thing by taking the ball earlier which will require him to do less wrist snapping and more work with his feet and body...quick and quicker.
One recommendation that I would have is to work on the wall. Against the wall there is limited time for recovery and less time for over-cooking the backwards emphasis sort of falling off of the ball. The weight must be kept going forwards and there simple isn't time to do to much overloading. The emphasis is to go forwards with the path of the ball with the entire body propelling the racquet face through that path of the ball. Through this wall work the emphasis is on control...aiming at a sheet of 8" x 11" piece of paper for example one meter over the height of the net. Have the student demonstrate that he can place the ball 50 times in a row on or close to that sheet of paper...then a 75 times...then 100 times. In this way you will be engineering a stroke that will repeat itself...with repetitive footwork and repetitive set up position...and repetitive follow through position. The whole stroke process will naturally be shrunk somewhat but it will be a natural progression when he is back on the court to lengthen the stroke with the different time constraints. Use the softer ball too...slow things down a bit. Force him to think it through in this respect instead of just hammering and hammering away at it. It is an old fashioned method...but it works just fine in the long run.
The young man has time constraints...you would be surprised how much can be accomplished in 20 minutes a day thinking this thing through in this manner. It all adds up you know.
Create the three lines of feet, racquet and shoulders in the "get in position" to go forwards every single time...then go forwards with the chest over the front foot and the chest "on the ball"...keep the chest on the ball. Lean on that ball. Don't fall away from it. Keep the chest on the ball and the arm will swing in an arc that makes the most sense biomechanically wise.
John provides us with the ultimate "keep your chest on the ball" and "create the three lines in the get in position to go forwards position" with this wonderful music video of Roger Federer's forehand. You can adapt this to any swing...even shortened or abbreviated forehands. Start small and build...that's my motto. Learn to swing within yourself. That's the ticket.
Fundamentals...fundamentals...fundamentals. Don't be afraid to go a couple of steps backwards in order to define the way forwards...you will see what I mean. Thanks for the thread...again. It's very generous of you.
Part II to follow.
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Chest on the Ball...Don Budge Style
Once upon a time this backhand was spoken of as the "Greatest Shot of All Time". The Don Budge backhand...see how he has his chest on the ball and how he really leans on this shot even though his momentum is taking him in another direction. He gathers himself on impact to give the ball the impetus...instead of playing something weak and defensive.
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forehand
His forehand looks really good to me. Three possible ideas but hard to tell in slow motion so food for thought. 1. Head position at contact seems slightly to forward. 2. In forward swing wrist angle seems to need more extension. Look at Andy Murray side view. 3. When he starts forward swing it looks like swing path needs to be more inside out. His forehand looks very good.Comment
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Thanks...
Thanks for the posts guys. Some interesting points.
If you look at the slow motion clips and take a look at his head on contact, you will see he has taken his eye clean off the ball. In fact he has taken his eye off the ball well before impact. His head up and looking down the court. To me, this does two things: It leaves his head perched slightly upwards on contact with the ball...and by default makes it more difficult to keep his "chest on the ball" as don_budge recommends. When he is hitting at velocity you would think this could cause errors. His errors are always over the baseline and never in the net.
The reason this developed in the first place is because he used to get slightly too near the ball and then would have to lean his upper body back slightly to make room for the strike. The upright upper body and head are residue from that earlier fix. He is very double bend as you will have noticed.
Personally I think the shot looks better than it is. I will video him playing some points with another kid if I can, then you can get a better perspective. He is a decent player so fault finding is perhaps better done viewing him under duress or when stretched.
I think the wall idea is a good one, don_budge. His forehand doesn't repeat. He also needs to develop a quicker turn with having that longish swing he has. I am going to consider all your suggestions and try a few things out maybe over the weekend. It should be fun. He is off school still until next Wednesday so we have a small window to experiment.
I am not sure, bobbyswift, what you mean by his head being too forward? I realise his head position is compromised by taken his eye off the ball too soon, but I didn't have it down as too forward? Extension is of course an issue.
Back soon...
Last edited by stotty; 08-29-2014, 08:09 AM.StottyComment
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A couple of things here. Given that he is missing a position or two in the ATP forehand stakes then it would seem the stroke cannot evolve into an ATP by itself...or bit by bit. It would take significant coaching intervention. A clean decision. It would be hard to envisage it happening any other way.Originally posted by don_budge View Post
I think feeding in some lower balls and encouraging him to hit a falling ball might be a better way to encourage a better dog pat for the ATP.
But then there is the option of leaving things as they are. He can really whop it as hard any of his peers, harder actually, and making the shot more stable could be the best idea. At the end of the day it's about trade off. What will the gain be and will it be worth it?
The tactical point is an interesting one. How do you use a forehand tactically? One of the problems he has as an aggressive player is the one track mind that aggressive players inevitably seem to develop. He wants to win with his shotmaking, and quickly. But once his biggest shots have come back he's out of ideas. He cannot buy into the idea of letting the game come to him or experimenting with switching roles, i.e. just rally and let someone else make the aggressive moves.
In a way he is similar to Ed's kid. You can tell Ed's kid is insecure and hasn't figured out how to win...yet.
I have a theory about kids who become overly dependent on technique for all the answers, and that's they are often very late to figure the game out...the how to win aspect. They are always looking to the coach when the coach can only do so much.
Figuring how to win matches boils down to the player himself. You can educate them on patterns of play and what to do in given scenarios but the riddle of how to win can remain elusive to some players for quite some time.Last edited by stotty; 08-30-2014, 01:16 AM.StottyComment
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Defense has to come first for juniors, as the blasters don't win against the top defenders. Sampras changed his bh to a one hander and lost 19 x in a row. Loss is good, pain is good when you are learning for the future. Train him to enjoy the future, and it won't matter.Comment
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The Mouthful...
That was quite a mouthful...a very interesting post. The questions are good...really good. This is where you start...by asking questions. Then you solve the equation for the variables...the answers. We shall proceed at any rate.Originally posted by licensedcoach View Post
How does one use a forehand tactically speaking? Good question.
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The kid likes to be aggressive. Ok...let's develop an attacking GAME
One of the entertaining and interesting aspects of addressing this type of thread is that one gets to play "Sherlock Holmes" and being a Brit tennis coach you certainly understand what I am talking about. Ben Hogan spoke of being a detective in his pursuit of a repeatable golf swing. As evidence, all that we have is a couple of videos for visual of the student's technique and what you might just happen to mention in ways of personality makeup or tendencies of a psychological nature. Seeing that every student is different, it takes a lot of experience to read between the lines...and connect the dots.Originally posted by licensedcoach View Post
My first impression of this student was that he seems to be have a lot of energy and he is pretty enthusiastic...but perhaps he is not the most disciplined. He might even be somewhat bored with the limited scope of the game as it stands now for him. He feels that he wants to get "his head into the game". He likes taking a healthy swing at the ball, in fact he seems to be swinging somewhat out of his shoes in the mistaken belief that somehow hitting the ball really hard is power. Technically my first observation was that I did not like his footwork at all when he goes forward to meet the ball. In fact he seems to prefer falling away from the ball.
Hopefully you have taken my first recommendation of the wall work to heart and it appears from your comment that you have. One thing that will have to be impressed on this student is that CONTROL IS POWER. Aiming at a target methodically and at length over a period of time is designed to develop control...even discipline. He is going to have to learn to play percentage tennis...not trying to make shots that he isn't certain he can make. Mental strength is another desired result of practicing with concentration. A repetitive swing is paramount. This somewhat reduced swing will be the basis of our next work in going forwards to the net and retreating back to the baseline. The reduced swing is the basis of the full groundstroke swing as well as the in between shots of approach and half volley. This reduced swing with it's "forwards emphasis" is also the basis of the volley. Foot position, weight over the front foot and chest on the ball.
I submitted this video to support my feelings about his footwork and body position...Roger Federer's chest is on the ball as he makes contact and into his follow through:
So you ask, "How do you use a forehand tactically?". My answer to that is...to attack whenever possible...to defend when you must and to play neutral in order to look for an opening. Playing neutral is a more subtle form of attack...or even defense. With me so far?
Today...in modern tennis the concept of attack is from the baseline. Let's think a bit outside of the box here and tailor our coaching to the student...instead of the other way around. This kid wants to win with his shot making and he wants to win quickly. Why not? Let's make him an attacking player and train him to be patient enough and controlled enough to wait for his opportunity and then to attack. I have already addressed this variable with some wall training for "grooving" a more repeatable stroke and now let's get him out on the court with the next step...and go forwards...and backwards. From the backcourt and to the net and all points in between. Attack at every given opportunity...or rather when the opportunity presents itself.
Step number two...the forwards and backwards drills. You have read what I have written about this kind of work and this is the way to train tennis. I was never one to camp out on the baseline and trade groundstrokes hour by hour. I wanted a little action...and a pound of my opponents flesh...so we go on the attack with our training.
Your boy has roughly three hours a week to invest in his tennis training so let's make the most out of the time and not waste any of it. This work can be done with or without the coach and it is even best that he has a like minded training partner...maybe even a doubles partner.
Up and back...up and back...up and back...up and back...up and back. Then repeat 1,000 more times.
Two practice partners with several balls in the free hand and a couple in the pocket as well. Player A and Player B. Player A is the designated advancing and retreating player and Player B is the designated feeding player. Player A initiates a rally and Player B returns, Player A hits from the baseline and advances towards the net. Player B merely is hitting the ball down the middle or to one side of the middle or the other and he returns to Player A who has advanced into the court to play either an approach shot, a half-volley or a volley from mid-court back to Player B. Player B continues his feed as Player A closes in on the net. Once Player A has closed all the way to the net...he may want to finish with his nose over the net to simulate aggressive closing...then he begins to retreat. So now he is going to play the ball going backwards...he may want to move backwards in a skipping motion to do a little extra “fast feet” training in the process. Hitting the ball going backwards requires a rather quick weight transition on the ball as you are going to try and get yourself more or less set to make a tennis shot and this is more or less impossible if you are running backwards. You might think of his reverse crosscourt forehand as he is retreating backwards but then tries to shift the weight back to the ball as he swings.
In the process of going backwards Player A may be playing balls out of the air, on the short hop or when he reaches the baseline he will be playing it on the bounce. Then start the process immediately again.
Once you get proficient at this practice you may make a number of trips to the net without either player missing. When you miss you immediately put the next ball in play and work at this hard until once all of the balls are used up...then immediately and quickly retrieve the balls and start again. When Player A becomes to exhausted to continue advancing and retreating...it is Player B’s turn to do so.
Keep in mind that the focus is on both Player A and Player B. Player B has a huge responsibility in this workout and his mission is not to miss and to feed balls of various speed and even spins and depths to the advancing and retreating Player A. When Player A reaches the net Player B can send a lob up over his head for smash practice...afterall if you are going to advance on the net your opponent is going to have to resort to lobbing as well. Player B also can use some drop shot and lob tactics as well...which is an attacking strategy that goes hand in hand with our training to convert this baseliner into an all court player. Mix it up...just as he will in his matches after practicing in this manner. This is drill number one with forwards and backwards movement...a couple of more to follow.
The players are going to be training their one handed backhands as well as it is necessary to load up on balls in the free hand for this training. Player A is going to get to train using the slice approach as well as his backhand volley and backhand half volley.
Your player appears to have some symptoms of wanting to play all court tennis. He is not satisfied with the “modern” mode of operation of camping out on the baseline and he has other ideas or even just a lack of patience for such play. Let’s give him something to expand on his ideas about tennis and tennis tactics. The one technical concept that will work with all of the shots from the baseline to the net is that concept of "keeping the chest on the ball". From the groundstroke to the half volley to the volley. Even overheads...think of the chest in the serve and how you try to lift it to the sky...to the ball.
At the same time we take a look at the serve and encourage a motion that will propel him towards the net. He doesn’t have to serve and volley all of the time but it certainly should be an option...something that he should be practicing. Who knows...he might develop a nose for the net and become a serve and volley player who enjoys playing doubles also. Of course serving tactics for serve and volley are a bit more complicated as well so some thought and discussion will ensue from this idea...concept.
Just some food for thought...we certainly don’t want to “offer up a student for slaughter” as I have been accused of in the past. But what you will do in this process of developing these skills is create options for your player who doesn’t exhibit all of the patience in the world. We can teach him to take calculated risks based on percentages instead of a “hail Mary” from the baseline.
Let’s continue this discussion. I think it is fascinating. It isn’t necessary to have an ATP forehand even...perhaps we even talk a bit about how to exploit the ATP forehand in our tactics.
Thanks again for such a thought provoking thread and generously offering your student as an excellent example.
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The Forwards Emphasis...Aggressive tactics
This is the forehand that I am advocating...or some facsimile. It was on full display against the hapless Marcel Granollers the other night. Attacking relentlessly.
Forward emphasis...as in forwards to the net. For the less patient. For those inclined to attack...to be aggressive.
Of course you have to develop a whole plethora of other shots to maximize its effectiveness...but that is the fun of it. From the baseline to the net and all points in between.
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I actually think it does have to do with the lack of "flip". He starts pulling the racket forward so early behind his body that his wrist naturally comes forward a bit too soon.Originally posted by licensedcoach View PostHere some clips of a forehand I would like the coaches on the forum to look at.
They are shot from various angles.
There are no flips for this boy but there is no lack of power either. He has plenty of power. What his forehand lacks is security, reliability.
I feel a lot of problems lie in positioning and footwork. When he is forced to move and use clearing steps as in the inside-out clips, things automatically get a whole lot better.
I am not going to say anymore because I'd like others to give their opinions. I haven't edited the clips. I left them "warts and all". What you see is very much what happens in a match. He has developed a liking for the reverse forehand and can't seem to stop experimenting with the shot at the moment...personally I don't think it's for him.
He knows the clips are on the forum and is happy they be dissected. He won't be viewing the posts so feel free to speak frankly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1514pYN_o
I would have him start in a more neutral position and "flip" the racket back and pull more dynamically. I think this will let him keep the wrist laid back longer towards the ball instead of coming around too soon.
Now look at how his wrist isn't angled backwards and downwards enough compared to the pros at this stage of the stroke:
So I think his wrist lays back too soon and consequently comes forward too soon.
Having said that, his upper body rotation combined with the sinking of his legs followed by the uncoiling and lifting upwards with his legs is pretty awesome to watch. He has a great pull of the racket followed by an awesome wiper motion. He is clearly blasting the ball - you can hear the pop on each ball. I just think he lays his wrist back too early in the pull.
To me, his backhand looks a bit more suspect and would like to see footage of his backhand - I think there is more to do be done there technically than on the forehand.
I am incredibly impressed by this kid. He is very, very talented.Last edited by jeffreycounts; 09-02-2014, 06:10 PM.Comment
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forehand.
Great assessment. I feel if he improved this element along with head position at contact his forehand would be improved. Still feel he could be going more inside out on forward swing. With your post he also appears to need to pronate forearm slightly his racket face is slightly less closed. The comparison shots are awesome.Comment
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To ATP or not to ATP
Thanks so much for input bobby and jefferey. And thanks jefferey for going to the trouble of posting the comparison photos. I have a question to you both:
Because he isn't ATP (although the clips show him trying it) and has a comparatively bigger backswing (he sometimes breaches the plain of the body) doesn't that translate into his wrist having to be laid back earlier as the rackets transitions to the forward swing?
Regarding the wrist not being angled low enough: I was aware of this. This is why he only gets X amount of topspin. The racket isn't coming from a steep enough position. Again isn't this part and parcel of not being ATP?
This dilemma is how to bring greater stability to an erratic stroke. Will delaying the wrist make it more stable?
Yes, the boy is talented. And I am happy to show his backhand when we're through with the forehand. His backhand is far more reliable his forehand. Technically it's a simple stroke. His forehand is, however, more dangerous
I will post some clips of him playing points soon so yourselves, don_budge and others can take a look...just as soon as I have figured how to put clips from my android phone onto my mac! (knew I should have bought an iPhone!). I think showing points is more realistic and more revealing.
Bobby, I am not too sure what you mean about his head position being too far forward. It seems ok to me other than his head is perched slightly up on the strike. I get your point about pronating the forearm.
Last edited by stotty; 09-03-2014, 07:09 AM.StottyComment
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His head position in my opinion is looking to a contact point that is in front of his body but not off enough to the side. To me the top forehands have their head more 45 degrees than where I believe his head is positioned. I would be trying to make his forehand more atp style as he is very close to that model and I would think be very receptive to that model.Comment
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