Ok...let's improve a forehand

[stotty]

Here some clips of a forehand I would like the coaches on the forum to look at.

They are shot from various angles.

There are no flips for this boy but there is no lack of power either. He has plenty of power. What his forehand lacks is security, reliability.

I feel a lot of problems lie in positioning and footwork. When he is forced to move and use clearing steps as in the inside-out clips, things automatically get a whole lot better.

I am not going to say anymore because I'd like others to give their opinions. I haven't edited the clips. I left them "warts and all". What you see is very much what happens in a match. He has developed a liking for the reverse forehand and can't seem to stop experimenting with the shot at the moment...personally I don't think it's for him.

He knows the clips are on the forum and is happy they be dissected. He won't be viewing the posts so feel free to speak frankly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SBiIy22D24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qOG3V1NR-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1514pYN_o

[vrc10s]

Forehand

It is hard to see without slow mo but here are some quick thoughts.
1. I am a believer in extension and he comes of the ball too quickly a lot. I judge this at regular speed by the fact that his hitting elbow does not get away from his side.

2. His contact point is not consistent. On the side view look at 28 and 53 on the counter. No extension and a very different contact point when considering the the distance in front (closer to the net). The forehand at 50 has much better extension and a nice contact point.

Just a quick look.

[gzhpcu]

Definitely more extension needed. Will give the shot more penetration. Good movement.

[hockeyscout]

I understand all of you want to work on the young man's technique, however, I think you need to back up.

To many steps have been skipped in this young man's athletic development.
I am sure people wanted to build the strokes first, and then develop the athletic foundation, however, I am not sure if that is the way to go.

The great players like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Dimitriev were great because their mom's dad's, uncles and parents we're (a) athletes, (b) understood other sports (soccer - volleyball) and (c) developed solid athletic foundations in place which we're good enough for tennis. Interestingly enough Federer, Nadal and Djokovic played soccer, and those coaches set it all up. Dimitriev mom is a hell of a volleyball and athletic coach, you can see it in his setup which is flipping brilliant. He reminds me so much athletically of Joe Montana, the great NFL QB.

Anyways, you're player, his feet are worrisome to me. Their are a lot of major technical issues which are holding him back. Lots of work needed in terms of posture.

His pelvis position is in the incorrect position 99 percent of the time which is why he cannot extend on his strokes.

It will get a bit better, however, it will all fall apart when the speed increases, and you'll be back to square one with a confused athlete.

It's all creating some very bad plantarflexion, and no levers. You'll need to get his toes aligned and work on his recovery cycle more. The simple way of saying this is his touchdown foot is in front of his center of gravity, and I am 200 percent sure this interrupting of flow action is your front and center issue.

For me, their is to much strain on his hamstrings, and it will lead to injury if not corrected. He's got to learn sequential firing if he wants to be a high end athlete, and I can see no one has coached him YET in these fundamentals.

Hopefully Slotty you will get this important part solved.

Deceleration is a big time issue when setting up athletes, and ensuring dorsiflxion action is a must, as (very important), the hands always follow the feet (universal rule of ANY sport).

Bottom line for me, his ground contact time is SLOW, and he is applying to much force on the ground. He is wasting a lot of time which he does not have at his disposal and sinking way to much, and as a result, his hands are lagging terribly.

It must be tough for you all to coach these tennis players, as they are always looking for quick results. Their are not any, and set up takes many years.

I have a young one who is eight years old, and it's tough when they are not born naturally with certain gifts below the waist (as is the case with my young one), and girls especially. The low elbows and rackets out of position are related to questionable athletic setups. Their's a few who make it in woman's tennis like Davenport and Sharapova who overachieve with above average foundation setups, however, in men's tennis, well, forget it. You can't get away with it.

I can get the wife to look at this as she's more technically proficient in this area, while my expertise in the area of the teaching hand - eye skills and mental engagement.

[GeoffWilliams]

He /needs to develop an atp type III fh. This more rigid style will limit his topspin and his ability to react to deeper stronger shots with no snap back in his stroke.

If I can learn one at 57, he can learn one at 16!

[stotty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SBiIy22D24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qOG3V1NR-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1514pYN_o

The best thing a coach can do for a good junior is give them a stable forehand. It doesn't have to be a world-class bazooka, just solid and well placed. It's tough to win matches if your forehand is a liability...ask Klacr.

I think extension is an issue as some posters have mentioned already. He likes Monfils and likens his forehand to him. You will notice Monfils has poor extension for a tour player, but likely overcomes this through sheer talent.

I think a key fault could be his positioning. The side view clip reveals he gets caught in a square stance too often. I'd like to see him in the stronger stances more often and getting his body behind the ball better. The shot looks slappy at times because he hasn't gotten behind the ball.

Another thing I wondered is whether his turn is deep enough? Should he stretch out his left arm more?

The other thing of course is the ATP forehand issue. He hits the ball harder than many of his peers who have an ATP. He can generate spin too. Would their be a benefit in changing to an ATP? Is there any evidence that an ATP brings about greater stability?

[GeoffWilliams]

The evidence is: Nadal, Fed, Djoko, Murray, Isner, Warinka, Tsonga, Berdych, etc. They all have snap back fhs, for a reason: more rpms, quicker reactions under pressure. The reason why so many women don't: they aren't fast nor strong enough to produce the split second reaction required to hit the ball hard with the snap back. Even Stosur fh is too spinny. Kuznetsova, inconsistent. Henin had the best female fh.

he can stay with a female fh all his life, or learn it now when it's relatively easy.

[hockeyscout]

Thoughts

Yes, Monfils has poor extension for a tour player, however, if you did a gait analysis you'd better understand why he can do what he does successfully.

It ain't because he's naturally gifted.

Monfils has played soccer and basketball, and he's transitioned it over to tennis. As well, the guy has a dancing backround. Go and talk to Monfils. Ask him about Gumboot, Bomba and Pantsula, and I bet he knows it, is a student on it, and can do it at a pretty precious level.

The MMA kid I work with here is from Cameroon, he's easy to work with because he can easily relate to the athletic skills sets I want to install because his neurology set-up has been so flipping good from day one. You know how good the dude can dance? I gotta really think to fry him!

I told him this and he explained to me when people protest in his country they can hit the streets, and just through dance send a very bad message to the government without words. The kind of control it takes to do their dances is pretty darned taxing! And, it builds players who "appear to have unbelievable natural talent."

Monfils natural talent?

I don't think so. He has had a terrific setup, and he's learned rhythm, pelvis placement and proper set ups by mom, dad, aunts and uncles who clearly know a thing or two about movement.

I told my wife, Bomba etc, Hawaii, Jamaican dancing -- please, get ON IT NOW, understand it better, try it, do it, add it to what we do asap, dear, and we will both be better coaches, and able to teach the hands much better because, I know I say this a lot, the hands follow the feet.

Now to you're player -- best of luck teaching him a game ready ATP forehand with his current pelvis positioning.

He's going to rip out his hamstrings if he continues on this pathway.

Before you can even think about technically looking at the swing (or changing it), you need to build a road map so you understand everything that is happening with your athlete.

You need to look deeply into this youngsters athletic habits, kinetic awareness, sequential firing (ordering) testing from point A to Z, flexibility, functional strength issues, athletic stability and proper movement patterns.

His compensations at this point in time are SCARY, and his imbalance is putting way to much pressure on the kids joints.

His activation points are so inactive for me, and his stabilizer muscles are being overused. I am not sure he'll get much better or have productive training time, as he'll get fried whenever you ramp it up, or of course it'll all fall apart in games.

Please, focus on gait analysis!

The hands follow the feet, hips and collarbone. Rule of sports science. Sequential firing order. It cannot be broken.

[hockeyscout]

The evidence is: Nadal, Fed, Djoko, Murray, Isner, Warinka, Tsonga, Berdych, etc. They all have snap back fhs, for a reason: more rpms, quicker reactions under pressure. The reason why so many women don't: they aren't fast nor strong enough to produce the split second reaction required to hit the ball hard with the snap back. Even Stosur fh is too spinny. Kuznetsova, inconsistent. Henin had the best female fh.

he can stay with a female fh all his life, or learn it now when it's relatively easy.

And Geoff is right. Female. Go back to square one. Redo the work others should have done ten years ago.

[stotty]

Keep to the core issue guys...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SBiIy22D24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qOG3V1NR-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1514pYN_oThanks for the posts.

It would be great if posts are kept to the point so as to be helpful. Keep in mind the boy is 16 and his main priority is his education right now. He plays three hours a week at most. He wants to play tennis with those three hours and not spend them in a gym.

I would like to keep the thread on the core issue of the stroke itself. How to make it more stable, regardless of type.

The ATP is an option but there have also been many good forehands that don't follow that model. Remember he only has three hours a week and other strokes to tend to as well.

I still think the core problem is footwork and positioning...which doesn't help his follow through and extension. If anyone sees anything fundamentally different to this that is affecting the strokes stability, please let me know.

[hockeyscout]

I am 110 percent on the point?

It would be great if posts are kept to the point so as to be helpful. He wants to play tennis with those three hours and not spend them in a gym. I would like to keep the thread on the core issue of the stroke itself. How to make it more stable, regardless of type. The ATP is an option but there have also been many good forehands that don't follow that model. Remember he only has three hours a week and other strokes to tend to as well. I still think the core problem is footwork and positioning...which doesn't help his follow through and extension. If anyone sees anything fundamentally different to this that is affecting the strokes stability, please let me know.

My lord.

My post is exactly 100 percent on the point.

Now, with all due respect.

You are a million miles away, ten times zones and light years from even worrying about things like a follow through in this specific players development.

Slotty, his previous coaches have created you a mountain of a Mount Everest job by doing absolutely nothing but collecting coaching fees.

So I'd just lower expectations now and get to the core issues of your problems, which I assessed earlier in the post for the kids own good.

An athlete like this needs to be trained so he can enjoy the game at 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's and be functionally balanced.

That's about as on the point as you need at this time.

I personally think the kid will end up getting injured if you allow him to continues on this trajectory, and I pointed out why already so I don't want to beat a dead horse here anymore.

Seeking the holy grail isn't productive, and if the kid believes someone on here will point out the point out anything in the hands department, he's really out in left field. Hands follow the feet, and one hands cannot come before the feet in ANY sport.

You need to convince this kid to back up and get to cause (which I pointed out).

As for this kid, I would probably tell the young man the truth, and state their is no way I can assist you with your strokes because you're need SO work athletically, and if I allow you to continue you will get badly hurt, and I do not want that.

On another note, look at Rick Macci, now this guy is a smart dude.

Venus Williams already was a world class 100 meter sprinter at 11. Her setups were perfect. Thus, it was easy for him to incorporate the hand skill elements you want to do with this kid.

Here's an athlete who is self aware, and can do something special, generate power from the inside functionally.

Seven years, and 10,000 hours of practice with Richard, mom and Serena gave her that. Yes, maybe questionable strokes, bad grips, I can see it, however, no problem, things were set up nicely athletically without the racket.

It did not take a rocket scientist to see Venus was obviously just going to get better while others stalled, got injured and lost interest.

If you are not set up (or willing to do it) like Richard Williams and Mike Agassi did, go home, call it a day as you'll just be wasting the pro's time, and you're hard earned cash which could go to school, or an investment fund for the kid to buy his own house when he is 20.

[stotty]

Thanks for your input hockeyscout. If you could just step to one side for now and allow others who might want to chip have their say -- thanks.

We had a little go a ATP today for the first time. I am not convinced it's the way to go but there is little harm in trying. He does achieve a more dog pat position but seems to open up too early on the run up to the ball. Not bad for a twenty minute attempt though.

We tried some starting from the outside backswing but instead of pulling the racket head through from that fixed position, he tends to take the racket back further instead...which would seem fatal to achieving an ATP. He likes to pull the racket back long way and finds the compactness of an ATP awkward.

Here is the original of a few days ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1514pYN_o

Here is his effort today...in slow motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jpSIrU8tF8&feature=youtu.be

[hockeyscout]

Thanks for your input hockeyscout. If you could just step to one side for now and allow others who might want to chip have their say -- thanks. We had a little go a ATP today for the first time. I am not convinced it's the way to go but there is little harm in trying. He does achieve a more dog pat position but seems to open up too early on the run up to the ball. Not bad for a twenty minute attempt though. We tried some starting from the outside back swing but instead of pulling the racket head through from that fixed position, he tends to take the racket back further instead...which in my view seems fatal to achieving an ATP. He likes to pull the racket back long way and finds the compactness of an ATP awkward.

Well Slotty, if you bothered to read my last post I did say I am not going to say more as it's like beating a dead horse.

You need to think about cause and effect.

It's one of two things - (1) either you do not understand basic athletic progression for movement, proper hip placement - alignment and gait or (2) you are choosing to skip them for reason's I can't figure out.

Please, I beg you: (1) stop and (2) back up.

You're player is going to get injured, or hurt because this looks downright scary to me.

Sorry. I don't mean to be a jerk but this is a Chernobyl blow up waiting to happen.

[stotty]

We had a little go a ATP today for the first time. I am not convinced it's the way to go but there is little harm in trying. He does achieve a more dog pat position but seems to open up too early on the run up to the ball. Not bad for a twenty minute attempt though.

We tried some starting from the outside backswing but instead of pulling the racket head through from that fixed position, he tends to take the racket back further instead...which would seem fatal to achieving an ATP. He likes to pull the racket back long way and finds the compactness of an ATP awkward.

Here is the original of a few days ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU1514pYN_o

Here is his effort today...in slow motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfea-xo2XGw&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jpSIrU8tF8

[don_budge]

Ideas...

We tried some starting from the outside backswing but instead of pulling the racket head through from that fixed position, he tends to take the racket back further instead...which would seem fatal to achieving an ATP. He likes to pull the racket back long way and finds the compactness of an ATP awkward.

First of all...thanks for posting this thread. It goes without saying that any advice would hopefully be in the spirit of good will and not in the spirit of some kind of pissing contest. You have submitted many times in the past these types of educational threads and not once has it ever descended into nether regions.

Very impressive. The fact that he tried something different and was receptive enough to work it through. I, for one...would love to have a dozen boys just like him to work with. I notice that in the second new clip his footwork is much more classic...stepping towards the ball facilitates more extension. Extension being a fancy word for getting the racquet head through the path of the ball longer.

There are no big problems here...and remember that for each and every problem there is at least one solution. It's great too...that the young man is focused on his studies. These types make the best tennis students...they don't always have to end up on the world stage. It is well enough that they enjoy the sport for what it is. A great hobby...that has the metaphysical makeup of science, art and philosophy.

What I see is a young man who likes what he is doing. Who cares if he makes it to the top or any other point in between? It's up to him in the end. Give him as many ideas as you can...let him sort it out in practice or in competition. I have a couple of ideas...care to hear them?