Tour Strokes: Maria Sharapova Serve

[johnyandell]

Would love to get your thoughts on my article, "Tour Strokes: Maria Sharapova Serve"

[stroke]

You nailed it John on Maria's serve issue. In fact, that issue is probably a predominant issue on the pro women's tour. Stosar, who to me has the best serve in women's tennis, being a notable exception. I like your thoughts on how to correct it a lot. I remember your articles on the Roddick serve where you identified what you called his invisible secret move. Basicly, you noted that Roddick really kicked his racquet out to his right(or extreme supination) in his backswing. You even suggested that one could possibly experiment with his Roddick move by kind of starting in this position and see if you notice any additional pop on ball(you did note it was a move that was difficult to get a feel for). The reason I thought of this is because if one consciously starts in this extreme supination position, you really have no choice but to rotate you arm from the shoulder down to hit the ball, which I think would also encourage one to really finish the complete 180 degree arm rotation. I would guess Roddick had more than 180 degree rotation with his extreme supination starting position.

[hockeyscout]

John

You nailed it John on Maria's serve issue. In fact, that issue is probably a predominant issue on the pro women's tour. Stosar, who to me has the best serve in women's tennis, being a notable exception. I like your thoughts on how to correct it a lot. I remember your articles on the Roddick serve where you identified what you called his invisible secret move. Basicly, you noted that Roddick really kicked his racquet out to his right(or extreme supination) in his backswing. You even suggested that one could possibly experiment with his Roddick move by kind of starting in this position and see if you notice any additional pop on ball(you did note it was a move that was difficult to get a feel for). The reason I thought of this is because if one consciously starts in this extreme supination position, you really have no choice but to rotate you arm from the shoulder down to hit the ball, which I think would also encourage one to really finish the complete 180 degree arm rotation. I would guess Roddick had more than 180 degree rotation with his extreme supination starting position.

Great article. I am reviewing this with my baseball and track + field people. This version of your newsletter was the best I have seen, and most useful.

[gzhpcu]

This is the issue I mentioned in regard to Andre Agassi's serve as well.

[johnyandell]

Stroke,

Thank you.

HS,

Thank you. (But c'mon they are all great.)

Phil,

Yes.

[don_budge]

An interesting article...

Would love to get your thoughts on my article, "Tour Strokes: Maria Sharapova Serve"

It's an interesting article with an interesting take. I must admit that I get lost with the terminology...I never use such language when I am teaching a service motion. Even to my more advanced students.

That being said I was a first hand observer at Roland Garros this year and had the opportunity to see Maria Sharapova in action. Her serve didn't seem to be of any hindrance against the gals she played against. But it appeared to me that there was something still left on the table regarding her typical delivery.

I am not so certain that there is one way to deliver the racquet head to the ball...in fact it seems to me that comparing the shots of Maria and Roger Federer you are comparing two different types of deliveries. It appears to me that Roger is hitting some kind of kick or more of an overspin delivery whereas Maria's video clip might be representative of more of a flatter or even somewhat of a slice.

Doesn't that rotation that your article refers to best exemplify a kick serve delivery? But I agree that the rotational delivery is stunted...except I believe that the rotational retardedness is in the lower body. I wish we could see the completion of the first video in the finish of her swing.

But down below we see her finish and as I suspected her lower body finishes without her rear leg swinging through as her racquet passes through the path of the ball. In fact the rear leg shoots out directly behind her with her foot almost as high as her head. Somehow the energy of the lower body is displaced and not being utilized at all...at least not to its full potential.

I see what you are referring to as "rotation" of the arm, wrist and hand but what I am wondering is if the real problem of rotation is in the legs. I looked at the first five American men in the stroke archives and even though each one of them has a somewhat different style of delivery...every single one of them swings the back leg through.

Perhaps if Maria was swinging that back leg through somehow it would help her to extend a bit more to achieve more of the rotation that you are referring too. This is one reason that I don't care for pinpoint stances in general...it seems to sometimes obfuscate the potential of the lower body to drive the motion. If Maria does indeed have a arm, hand and wrist rotational deficiency...I wonder if the cause of the problem just might be improper use of the lower body. While you may not be able to see that 1/10th of a second rotation of the arm, hand and wrist you can certainly see that she doesn't rotate her lower body through the delivery and if she isn't rotating her lower body doesn't that mean that she may not be rotating her torso fully or at least properly timing wise either. I guess this sort of thing might just work it's way up the ladder of the swing...right up to the wrist and racquet head. Cause and effect.

I must admit that I get slightly confused with the terminology...perhaps a list of terms and definitions would be helpful. I think Maria hits a pretty flat ball on the serve and that may be a real factor in double faulting if that is a problem. I didn't notice that in the match that I saw her play.

What do you think?

[stroke]

Good post DB as usual on the serve. I kind of agree with John. The 180 degree rotation of the arm, from the shoulder down, is critical to the serve. Obviously, it cannot be seen without high speed video. I think the servers who have the quickest, most violent rotation, have the very best serves, the signature Sampras finish being the gold standard. Goran also had this Sampras type finish as did Roddick. And I do think it happens on all serves with the best servers, flat, kick, or slice. It is just ball strike location and throw direction that changes. I'm speculating that Roddick had even more than a 180 degree rotation with his what John once called "his invisible" move that John termed extreme supination on the backswing . Roger clearly has the 180 degree rotation as John points out. He just kind of extends out with his entire arm on the follow through, does not have the same violent rotational snap as Sampras.

[10splayer]

I'd be interested in the racquet head speed breakdown at different intervals from racquet drop to contact....In JY's article on Sampras's RHS at different segments, the speed increased from 30 to 90 from drop to contact...However, i would suspect there would be a spike (if measured) when the shoulder starts to rotate the arm.. After all, that's what we're talking about here. Massive rotation of the arm (in the case of Fed) and significantly less in Maria.

But yeah this Sharapova move is a major problem with most club players. That is, they try to keep the strings "aligned" to the ball, and push the racquet forward, instead of "rotating" the face "to" and "away" from the ball.

[johnyandell]

Good discussion.

You see the full rotation in most--but not all servers. Some who you'd expect to have bigger serves like Del Potro have more than Maria but less than Roger or Pete. Andy Murray also has less than full rotation but again has a more to the right ball placement. Still his serve could be even scarier I feel. Roddick is up there with the most extreme due to the effects of his windup to that outside power position.

The full turnover of the hand and racket is similar to the extension point on the forehand. In fact it is the extension point. The point at which the racket travels the furthest forward before relaxing and swinging back to the player's left.

Maria has good leg drive and kick back. All the top men do--landing left leg with the rear foot kicking back. Any swing around comes after the kick back and is about recovery.

[GeoffWilliams]

Sampras and Becker had little leg kick back. They were trying to get into the net faster!

[tennis_chiro]

Good discussion.

...

Maria has good leg drive and kick back. All the top men do--landing left leg with the rear foot kicking back. Any swing around comes after the kick back and is about recovery.

I still question whether the omnipresent kickback is an adaptation for balance and not going forward to the net, as Geoff suggests in the last post, or is it really a mechanism that adds additional speed to the serve. There is some reasoning I can see in the idea that if the server creates additional momentum to the rear, that momentum can in some way be balanced by additional momentum that was transferred to the ball going forward. Or something like that. Biomechanists, help!

don

[gzhpcu]

I feel that the women are obsessed with jumping up when serving, and are forgetting to turn their shoulder more as the men do. Shoulder turn like here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8yZ-PUvz74

Once the rule that one foot had to stay in contact with the ground, the women started jumping upwards, forgetting the shoulder turn.

[10splayer]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdXawklcZk

Here ya go phil

[stroke]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdXawklcZk

Here ya go phil

I think Pat is spot on with his analysis in that video. You combine what he is teaching with the 180 degree arm rotation(initiated and completed by the shoulder) and you have what the highest level servers are doing.

[10splayer]

Yeah, I think pat is generally spot on.