Tour Strokes: Maria Sharapova Serve

[hockeyscout]

Question for don_budge

Yeah, I think pat is generally spot on.

Was Pat at IMG when Sharapova was 8 to 10?

[gzhpcu]

Was Pat at IMG when Sharapova was 8 to 10?

If so, remember: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

[stroke]

Also, Pat teachings on the serve have evolved through the years. You may remember in the 90's(I think), Pat came out with Sonic Serve video in which he promoted sticking the hip out over the baseline, as he demonstrates now in a negative way when he is mimicking on this YouTube video what Sharapova and most of the women players are doing wrong. He now is teaching a groin stretch(or limbo stretch) over the baseline, which promotes the chest tilt to the sky position he is demonstrating. As 10splayer said and I agree, Pat is a great instructor who certainly continues to try, learn, and teach new things.

[hockeyscout]

If so, remember: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

Are you talking about Sharapova or the IMG Tennis instructor?

[don_budge]

Reaction?

I still question whether the omnipresent kickback is an adaptation for balance and not going forward to the net, as Geoff suggests in the last post, or is it really a mechanism that adds additional speed to the serve. There is some reasoning I can see in the idea that if the server creates additional momentum to the rear, that momentum can in some way be balanced by additional momentum that was transferred to the ball going forward. Or something like that. Biomechanists, help!

don

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I am very curious too about the "omnipresent kickback"...something doesn't quite add up in my book.

[stroke]

Good discussion.

You see the full rotation in most--but not all servers. Some who you'd expect to have bigger serves like Del Potro have more than Maria but less than Roger or Pete. Andy Murray also has less than full rotation but again has a more to the right ball placement. Still his serve could be even scarier I feel. Roddick is up there with the most extreme due to the effects of his windup to that outside power position.

The full turnover of the hand and racket is similar to the extension point on the forehand. In fact it is the extension point. The point at which the racket travels the furthest forward before relaxing and swinging back to the player's left.

Maria has good leg drive and kick back. All the top men do--landing left leg with the rear foot kicking back. Any swing around comes after the kick back and is about recovery.

John, I really like your thought here where you likened the full turnover of the hand at extension point on the serve and the forehand. It really is similar, particularly on the straight arm forehands of Nadal and Federer.

[johnyandell]

Yeah thanks. Something that actually only occurred to me when working on the two serve articles this month... another step forward in understanding the mysteries of tennis...

[stroke]

Your thoughts on this likeness at extension point is something I had been looking at also, but I was just missing something in putting it together. Your explanation of the 180 degree shoulder rotation that Sharapova is missing brought home the shoulder rotation aspect of the serve. As you know, Brian pointed out the straight arm forehand really taps into the shoulder as the engine for the straight arm type 3 forehand. Guys like Nadal, Federer, and Verdasco probably get more than a 180 degree shoulder rotation from the completion of the flip to the finish of the completion of the shoulder rotation on their forehands as they finish the stroke.

[jimlosaltos]

Shoulder?

Would love to get your thoughts on my article, "Tour Strokes: Maria Sharapova Serve"

Great stuff. Kind of you, John, not to name poor Cliff Drysdale <g>.

The part about her not getting up to the ball is rather strange; she hits the ball higher in the air than a lot of ATP pros.

A tangential note on Maria's second serve. During one of those miked coaching beaks a few years back {and I love that the WTA does that} not sure if it was Joyce or Hogstedt, told her to something like "get over the ball" and Maria replied "I can't feel anything anymore. I can't feel it." I took that to mean after her injury.

I don't think people give her enough credit for toughness -- few players short of Tommy Haas have come back from multiple shoulder injuries.

[johnyandell]

I hope she didn't get over too many of them...

[jimlosaltos]

I hope she didn't get over too many of them...

The toss or the operations. Sorry, couldn't resist.

[jimlosaltos]

Pics/ examples Maria rotation

Would love to get your thoughts on my article, "Tour Strokes: Maria Sharapova Serve"

Here are 3 pics from the "Tour Portrait" TPN published of Maria, just in case people want to see more examples.

Rotation:
Sharapova_4JohnY_©jfawcette 2968 by james.fawcette, on Flickr

Not so much:

Sharapova_4JohnY_©jfawcette 2977 by james.fawcette, on Flickr


Not here, but she clearly gets the leg push John describes:

Sharapova_4JohnY_©jfawcette 2965 by james.fawcette, on Flickr

[jimlosaltos]

Djokovic's elbow

Would love to get your thoughts on my article, "Tour Strokes: Maria Sharapova Serve"

There were similar discussions on TV at Wimby of Novak Djokovic's greatly improved serve. One train of thought was, again, the altered elbow drop as supposedly illustrated here, a vidcap from ESPN.

Just FYI -- an earlier discussion by Darren Cahill, perhaps two years ago, blamed Djoko's serving problems instead on the lighter Head racket he used when he got the $20 million racket contract. Djokovic said "He couldn't feel where the racket was". Per Cahill, switching to the greater-swingweight racket he has today solved that. Just sharing info!

WimbyDjokoServeBeforeAfter-1 by james.fawcette, on Flickr

[tennis_chiro]

Difference between Jim's 1st and 2nd pictures

Wow, Jim. Those are great shots.

But I think the telling difference between the degree of internal rotation demonstrated in the first picture and the second one tells a lot about her service action. Probably the second shot was of a "flatter" serve, but even on a "flat" serve, you would see the internal rotation being completed much earlier on a Sampras or even Federer.

JY, does the video back up what I am postulating here. The first picture is just milliseconds further along in the action sequence than the second, but if the completion of the internal rotation is delayed until that later part of the motion, it is not going to be as effective in either developing power and spin or in releasing tension to protect the shoulder.

What do you think? Actually, we should know what you think. That is the whole point of the article. I think Maria would be a great candidate for my "burp" and "bubble" service drills. If you go to 8 minutes in on this clip, you can see me demonstrating and reviewing my "burp" and "bubble" drills with one of my students.

http://silviahosokawa.smugmug.com/Sports/Don-Brosseau-tennis/Pro-Coach-Don-Brosseau-Serve/i-NkQg8HW/A

The full demonstration of the drill comes at 11:30. A more clarifying rear view comes at 12:00.

don

[jimlosaltos]

[QUOTE=tennis_chiro;27970]Wow, Jim. Those are great shots.

Thanks. Appreciate it.