A New Teaching System: 1st Serve Spins and Placements

[johnyandell]

Would love to hear what you thought of "A New Teaching System: 1st Serve Spins and Placements"

[gzhpcu]

Very interesting John! Who would have thought the difference was just in the timing of the arm and hand rotation?

I guess in your next series on the second serve the height of the impact point and the swing path will come into play as the differentiator...

[johnyandell]

Yes regarding the second serve... based mainly on the toss difference.

And this is a mystery I have been trying to figure out for years. Thanks to Scott Murphy and Giancarlo Andreani (and Roger...) for giving us the imagery to really figure it out.

[klacr]

Regarding different directions on the serve I have always told myself...

For the left side of the service box (deuce court wide, ad court down the T) -open (rotate) shoulders just before impact and less pronation.

For the right side of the service box (deuce court down the T, ad court out wide) Keep shoulders turned a split second longer and earlier pronation.

Always worked for me. Whether it actually occurred or just in my mind's eye as other elements had to be used subconsciously I've found this train of thought helpful. Maybe you could use this Phil?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[gzhpcu]

I'll try it out Kyle. Something else I found helpful, and got from an old Pat Rafter article on his serve: When hitting, fall in the direction you want the ball to go...

[klacr]

I'll try it out Kyle. Something else I found helpful, and got from an old Pat Rafter article on his serve: When hitting, fall in the direction you want the ball to go...

Elaborate on that Rafter tip if you could please. Is it just as simple as "fall in the direction you want ball to go" or is there a larger idea behind it? Curious?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

[johnyandell]

The pronation or more accurately hand arm and racket rotation is about timing. So less or more rotation can also result in the same racket head angle differences shown in the article. It's not wrong. You see it in pros too.

The goal would be to have accuracy with as much biomechanical efficiency and energy as possible. That's the idea of the article. Maximize this critical element while still controlling the racket face angle. AND keeping the actual shape of the motion as similar as possible.

[gzhpcu]

Elaborate on that Rafter tip if you could please. Is it just as simple as "fall in the direction you want ball to go" or is there a larger idea behind it? Curious?

Kyle LaCroix USPTA
Boca Raton

Wish I could, I read it along time ago in a German Tennis Magazine. As I remember it is was just a simple "fall in the direction you want the ball to go" tip.

[don_budge]

A New Teaching System: 1st Serve Spins and Placements (The Transcript)

Would love to hear what you thought of "A New Teaching System: 1st Serve Spins and Placements"

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/teaching_systems/john_yandell/serve_spins_and_placements/index.html

Spin and placement

This is John Yandell...welcome back to my new teaching series on the serve. In this series we have covered all of the basic technical components in developing a sound, powerful and consistent motion. So now let’s turn to how to use the serve as a weapon. This means understanding how to create and vary spins and to place the ball in both service boxes.

There is tremendous misunderstanding what happens in the serve motion and even more when it comes to understanding the vital elements in creating ball rotation and placement control.

Is there such a thing as a pure slice serve? How about a topspin serve? Is snapping the wrist the key to spin variation and ball location? How about learning to carve around the ball at different angles? No...no...and especially no.

High speed video shows that creating variety in your serve is a function of small adjustments in the way that your hand and arm rotate into contact and especially the timing of these rotations. So let’s see how all that really works, strip away all of the misconceptions and give you the kind of control over spins and placements you have always wanted.

This month we will look at the interplay of factors in creating spins and placements on the first serve. Next month we will see how those same factors can be varied on the second.

Developing an accurate serve requires precise control of the upward swing. The difference in hitting the corners of the service box is only a few degrees in the angle of the racquet head at contact. How do you develop that control? As we have seen in the articles in the advanced tennis section the change in racquet head angle and direction are controlled by the timing of the hand and arm rotation. From the racquet drop position, to the contact and then out into the follow through.

Players do not and cannot carve around the side of the ball. The racquet head is actually rotating from the player’s left to the player’s right in the opposite direction. Top players hit the placement variations off the same toss and with the same elements in the upward swing. From the racquet drop position the elbow extends and as that is happening the racquet face turns roughly ninety degrees into the contact and then another ninety degrees roughly into the extension of the swing.

And what about the wrist? There is no forward wrist snap on the serve no matter what you have heard on TV or from teaching pros or other quote experts. The wrist moves from slightly laid back at the drop to a neutral position at contact. As the arm continues to rotate it stays in this neutral position well into the follow through. On some serves with some players the wrist can deviate to the outside slightly. But breaking the wrist forward actually stops the critical rotation that is the key to racquet speed and control.

So let’s see how you can vary the timing of this critical rotations to develop accuracy yourself.

1st Serve Ad

For the first serve in the ad court notice the complete rotation of the racquet from the drop to the extension in the follow through. It’s very similar on both placements. But now look at the difference in the timing. On the wide serve look how far the frame has rotated slightly before contact and how slightly after contact it is already turned over almost on edge. At the same point in the T-serve the face is much more open approaching contact and at the same point in the follow through has not yet begun to turn over.

Now see how this timing difference controls the slight differences in the angle of the racquet face when it strikes the ball.

Wide versus T

Look again how the racquet face is turned a few degrees more on the wide serve compared to the serve down the T. These differences produce placements that land up to 12 or 13 feet apart in the service box.

1st Serve Deuce

The same principle applies in the deuce court. Serving the T the rotation of the racquet head starts sooner before contact and also rotates further sooner in the follow through. This rotation is delayed when serving wide with the face more open when approaching the ball and the completion of the rotation happening later.

Again this produces slight angle differences in the racquet face at contact that direct the ball to the opposite corners of the box. The racquet face turns slightly further for the T-serve...it turns slightly less for the wide serve.

Spin on the 1st Serve

In good technical serving there is no such thing as a truly flat first serve. The racquet is moving forward but it is also moving sideways...it is also moving slightly upward. This generates side spin with a lesser topspin component. The wide serve in the deuce court and the T-serve in the ad will tend to have the most side spin. The wide serve in the ad and the T-serve in the deuce will tend to have a higher top spin element. The balance of top spin and side spin is also effected by ball position at contact as determined by the toss.

As we will see with the second serve a toss further to the left allows players to add top spin. Tosses further to the right tend to hit flatter and with more slice. This is particularly common in the women’s game. Tossing to the right also, for whatever reason, is often associated with less arm rotation and probably some loss of racquet speed.

If the racquet and arm are more straight up and down at contact this indicates increased slice. The more the racquet head is tilted to the players left the higher the topspin component. Players can increase the total amount of spin with more racquet head speed. They can also affect the topspin sidespin balance in making small adjustments in the angle of the approach with the racquet even with the same toss and placement.

For Yourself!

How can you start to develop this kind of control for yourself? For each placement...visualize making the full hand and arm rotation from the drop through the follow through. Now combine this with the image of angle of the racquet face at contact. As you start your serve imagine both the placement and the amount and type of spin and let this image guide the motion. Check your progress with high speed video.

In the future we will show you progressive drills to confidence in your ball control. But next...let’s look at how these same elements we need to control on the second serve.

The devil is in the details. Word by word. By listening and relistening and viewing and reviewing while typing at the same time...over and over...the lesson really sinks in. My actual thoughts to follow...if anyone is even remotely interested.

[don_budge]

It's Good John...it's really good!

Would love to hear what you thought of "A New Teaching System: 1st Serve Spins and Placements"

http://www.tennisplayer.net/members/teaching_systems/john_yandell/serve_spins_and_placements/index.html

It's good johnyandell...it's really good! Excellent!

This little exercise of transcribing your words that I have taken upon myself in connection with your video presentations has been an ultimate learning tool. By watching the presentations over and over and listening to your voice repeating everything five or six times has been a rewarding experience.

This last segment really sums up the other presentations and it all adds up to a very valuable teaching aid...a teaching experience. Your instructions as from grip, set-up position, trophy position and the swing path all add up to this latest edition...how to properly use all of the energy that you have stored up in the drop position to go after the ball in a meaningful and definitive manner.

It reminds me a bit of Ben Hogan's Five Easy Lessons...which really aren't so easy. It's technical and it too needs to be reread five or six times to fully comprehend the complexities of the motion. Ever since I mastered the game of golf I have made oblique references to the tennis serve motion being something of an upside down golf swing. With your discussion about the role of the hand and arm rotation and how it manipulates the face of the racquet to produce control over the racquet face for placement and spin it helps me to connect my thoughts on the matter...still connecting dots after all of these years.

This lesson in the effects on spin and placement demonstrates why everything preceding it is so important...it also demonstrates why so many service motions lack perfection...why they lack consistency in placement and control. This business about how the wrist, hand and arm come out of the drop position is some great food for thought about a subject that is so difficult to put into words. Almost impossible really...the best hope is to get the student to set-up properly...get them to take a rhythmic backswing...hopefully get them to a stellar trophy position...then pray that they can lean back just a bit and let that racquet fall into a drop position. Then...as you have said so clearly...in this lesson.

Thanks for sharing...once more demonstrating what a good bang...no, not just good...make that a great bang for the buck that tennisplayer.net is. Another satisfied paying customer and maybe the most critical as well...don_budge. My wife thinks that I can critique just about anything...I think that the guys on the forum agree with that as well.

But I think it is rather amazing that you can keep on coming up with consistently good quality and sound, interesting subject matter on the subject of tennis instruction. At the same time enlisting the support of your supporting cast. The conversations that they generate are sometimes almost as good or better...but both enhancing the other.

The video work by the way was really very good in this edition...fully illustrating exactly what it was that you were communicating. A great lesson...I am so glad that I took the time to transcribe it...the work was worth the effort in terms of additional understanding of the lesson. I remember reworking calculus problems or differential equations problems a number of times...or even just copying down the same problem over and over helping to get a complex concept through my dull and sleepy noggin.

Tennis is repetitive by nature. So are the instructions. Repeated over and over...until perfection. Or the pursuit of.

[natechura]

Extraordinary series launch, John!

You really nailed this terribly misunderstood fundamental. Can't wait to read your follow-up on the second serve. It could be your masterpiece!

[johnyandell]

DB,

Thanks. I think you really get what I was trying to do with this series. And appreciate the transcriptions.

I think we all are still(and always will be) trying to connect the dots.

John

Nate,

Pressure is a privilege, it is said. Will try to come thru on the second serve.

John

[jimlosaltos]

Your Thoughts on John Isner's Serve?

Would love to hear what you thought of "A New Teaching System: 1st Serve Spins and Placements"

Best explanation of this I've found; now to implement

I have mixed feelings about bringing up John Isner's serve because his sheer size makes him an outlier, but John is often held up as an example of great technique. From his impact location at 10 ft 9 in on a first serve, and about 4 feet into the court, the ball could literally go straight down into the front half of the service box like a mortal spiking a mid-court overhead. {I actually got on a step ladder to look ... hey, somebody has to}

It appears to me that John has a great variation in arm rotation. In my 4 photos here, from Indian Wells and San Jose {from TNP's "Tour Portrait"} you can see 1) the greatest rotation I've ever seen. John's right palm is literally facing straight up at the sky, next 2) what I'll call his typical rotation, then 3 & 4 are two images that seem to indicate a closed motion {perhaps you have slomo vid that would better show or disprove this}. Hmmm, emoticons count as images so I'll delete them in order to post.

1) Look at John's palm here:

John Isner Serve Follow Severe Rotation Semi BNP12 ©jfawcette 2282 by james.fawcette, on Flickr

2) A more typical Isner serve rotation:

Isner Serve 2nd follow Semi_SAP13 ©jfawcette by james.fawcette, on Flickr

3) A closed face hit or not?

John Isner Semi BNP12 ©jfawcette 2271 by james.fawcette, on Flickr

4) Extension

Isner Semi_SAP13 ©jfawcette by james.fawcette, on Flickr

Thoughts?

[johnyandell]

The third one is probably after the rotation. Look at much lower his arm is.

[gzhpcu]

jimlosaltos, did you see this discussion?

http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin...eractive+forum